dberdinka Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Szyjakowski, you are an idiot. A have no intention to nor did I ever claim that I wanted to go bolt up SCW. I only stated that the rap route already exists! These stations are not well hidden. If you've been up Outer Space in the last several years they should have been obvious. Why are you all getting your panties in a bunch now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 I think there are two sides to this issue, and I tilt slightly to the anti-rappel route camp but I can understand some of the arguments or it. In my view, the trail IS a sandy mess and people DO get hurt on it - on a regular basis. Usually it is only a sprained ankle or something, but I believe that over the years there have been broken legs and perhaps worse (wasn't there a tumble and head injury a few years back?). I agree with those who say that, given the chance, they just about always will walk off rather than rappel -- but there are times when, in failing light, I might have opted for a rappel route rather than walking down that trail if I knew it was a "good" rappel route. I'm not so concerned about the erosion issue, because the sandy soil in that canyon has erosion gullies all over it with or without climber-traffic. But I'm mostly interested in safety and convenience when it comes to what is in my view essentially a crag climb, and not a wilderness experience. On the other hand, I absolutely agree with the idea that if people start feeling free to add bolts at will on Snow Creek Wall, the place will fill up with sport climbs and this traditional playground will be forever altered for the worse. There are lots of sport crags out there, and we are seeing an increasing number of multipitch sport climbs in Washington, so I don't think it would be a serious crimp in any sport-climber's style to leave Snow Creek Wall as it is, and with its historic and very enjoyable climbs like Orbit, Mary Jane, Iconoclast, and Outer Space, I like the wall in its present form. In addition, I agree that a multipitch rappel on steep terrain can be a dangerous matter and that, if the rappel route becomes popular, we are almost certainly going to see people epic when they get their rope stuck, rappel off the end of their rope, or drop a friction device, or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Arrrgh! SCW is perfect in it's present state. As Darrin pointed out, the rap route already exists if you really must avoid the easy walk off. (why???) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Two points: If the route is only a rap route (that is, harder than 5.9x to lead) then I sure as hell hope there's no chance of getting a rope hung up on the pull. Could those bolts below the OS splitter (I seen 'em last time I was up there DBer) be used to climb the RPM pitch that leaves from Two-tree Ledge? Has anybody reading climbed that pitch lately? Oh, and of course, point three... the statement that "noone has complained" is patently false. Look up that other thread from last summer that UT linked above, or just check it out since someone revived it for spray value just the other day. Point four, if it really is a rap route, I say . Part of the allure of one's first trip to SCW is the fear the "heinous" walkdown. Point five, if it really was done by the DDD person at about the same time, what gives? Did that guy just get a new drill (at that time) or what? Time to go "improve" some 40-year classics! What ego! Point six, Edge of Space looks cool. Is it really hard? Is it all sport bolted 'n shit, or death-if-you-fall territory or somewhere in between? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 dberdinka said: Szyjakowski, you are an idiot. A have no intention to nor did I ever claim that I wanted to go bolt up SCW. I only stated that the rap route already exists! These stations are not well hidden. If you've been up Outer Space in the last several years they should have been obvious. Why are you all getting your panties in a bunch now? Ihave climbed this route 20x and once last summer and the bolts, which i noticed about 5years ago are abondoned projects.... I do not wear panties... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 mattp said: I think there are two sides to this issue, and I tilt slightly to the anti-rappel route camp but I can understand some of the arguments or it. In my view, the trail IS a sandy mess and people DO get hurt on it - on a regular basis. Usually it is only a sprained ankle or something, but I believe that over the years there have been broken legs and perhaps worse (wasn't there a tumble and head injury a few years back?). I agree with those who say that, given the chance, they just about always will walk off rather than rappel -- but there are times when, in failing light, I might have opted for a rappel route rather than walking down that trail if I knew it was a "good" rappel route. I'm not so concerned about the erosion issue, because the sandy soil in that canyon has erosion gullies all over it with or without climber-traffic. But I'm mostly interested in safety and convenience when it comes to what is in my view essentially a crag climb, and not a wilderness experience. On the other hand, I absolutely agree with the idea that if people start feeling free to add bolts at will on Snow Creek Wall, the place will fill up with sport climbs and this traditional playground will be forever altered for the worse. There are lots of sport crags out there, and we are seeing an increasing number of multipitch sport climbs in Washington, so I don't think it would be a serious crimp in any sport-climber's style to leave Snow Creek Wall as it is, and with its historic and very enjoyable climbs like Orbit, Mary Jane, Iconoclast, and Outer Space, I like the wall in its present form. In addition, I agree that a multipitch rappel on steep terrain can be a dangerous matter and that, if the rappel route becomes popular, we are almost certainly going to see people epic when they get their rope stuck, rappel off the end of their rope, or drop a friction device, or whatever. of course the trail is sandy...it is a drainage...I have walked down/slid on my ass/rapped trees in the pitch black with 3 buddies....we did not die, nor did we feel like we would. BTW: we should ask Fred Beckey if we need a rap route on HIS wall> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Chuck- although Edge of Space was put up on rappel, it's hardly a sport route. Expect BIG falls if you come off, probably not life threatening. Clarification: I have no idea if the "rap" route was established for that purpose, but it could work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 I have walked down/slid on my ass/rapped trees in the pitch black me too. What about the trundling goats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 If the route is only a rap route (that is, harder than 5.9x to lead) then I sure as hell hope there's no chance of getting a rope hung up on the pull. Could those bolts below the OS splitter (I seen 'em last time I was up there DBer) be used to climb the RPM pitch that leaves from Two-tree Ledge? Has anybody reading climbed that pitch lately? These bolts are directly below the splitter crack? Don’t know anything about them. Maybe someone was scopping a new route and not installing a rap route. In any event these are not part of Edge of Space. Point five, if it really was done by the DDD person at about the same time, what gives? Did that guy just get a new drill (at that time) or what? Time to go "improve" some 40-year classics! What ego! Are we talking Edge of Space or another route/rap route? See my earlier comments. Point six, Edge of Space looks cool. Is it really hard? Is it all sport bolted 'n shit, or death-if-you-fall territory or somewhere in between? Edge is a good route. Mildly scary (5.10) getting to first bolt and runout after the third to the anchor. If the second falls at the crux - there is a good swing potential. Last pitch is a bit intimidating because of the location. I suppose some falls could end up over the edge. You are definitely above the bolts on this pitch too. Maybe 5 bolts on the pitch which is long. Fun for the second because the chances of swinging over the edge. PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Szyjakowski said: dberdinka said: So much hostility! Get a clue you dork. We do not need an access war at SCW. I think this should end any debate. BTW: i am not trying to piss you off just trying to enlighten you. Here is some enlightenment! There won't be an access war if we, as a collective group of climbers, are smart enough not to start one on a trade route thats in plan view of the gorgeious, bavarian metropolitian cuty of Der Leavenworth. Besides, the bolts in question are anchors to Edge of Space that were upgraded by some gracious soul. Would it be a big difference if they were 2 bolts that people would put webbing around or chains that people won't have to mess with. Hopefully this won't intiate some people from giving their asses a break from frequent crowbar misuse and taking it upon themselves to remove the hardware in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 TimL, I believe bolts also in question are below and a bit (climbers) left of the pillar. That is, they are below the start of the 300 foot handcrack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 chucK said: TimL, I believe bolts also in question are below and a bit (climbers) left of the pillar. That is, they are below the start of the 300 foot handcrack. yes those bolts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 So are they actually to the left and below of the handcrack. I saw the bolts last year and thought they could be used as a descent but looked as if they are for another route. They are obviously not in the correwct position to be a belay for Outer Space. I'm not an advocate of bolting a rap station on the SCW. I think it would add a certain level of chaos to the whole affair. If these are the updated anchors to the Edge of Space I think thats cool. Thanks to the folks who updated the hardware. I'd much rather walk off, especially if its in the dark, than rap the route. I'm going to have to do Edge of Space this spring. Sounds like good times! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 TimL said: So are they actually to the left and below of the handcrack. I saw the bolts last year and thought they could be used as a descent but looked as if they are for another route. They are obviously not in the correwct position to be a belay for Outer Space. I'm not an advocate of bolting a rap station on the SCW. I think it would add a certain level of chaos to the whole affair. If these are the updated anchors to the Edge of Space I think thats cool. Thanks to the folks who updated the hardware. I'd much rather walk off, especially if its in the dark, than rap the route. I'm going to have to do Edge of Space this spring. Sounds like good times! Ill do EOS with you...this one has been on my list since i started in '92.... just always scared of the 1/4" rusty manky bolts...and they are gone. I live in Ltown on weekends and in the summer. PM me if you want to go Easter (4-20) weekend or after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Szyjakowski said: Ill do EOS with you...this one has been on my list since i started in '92.... just always scared of the 1/4" rusty manky bolts...and they are gone. I live in Ltown on weekends and in the summer. PM me if you want to go Easter (4-20) weekend or after that. Right on! EOS sounds like a nice mind bending climb. We'll have to do it soon. I have some crazy moving/new job stuff going on in the next couple of weeks but we'll see what happens. I'd like to climb as much as possible before the golden handcuffs get put on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrogers Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 TimL said: I have some crazy moving/new job stuff going on in the next couple of weeks but we'll see what happens. I'd like to climb as much as possible before the golden handcuffs get put on. Boo fricken hoo, Dutch hater. I got a whole bag of "shzzzppth" for ya. And, of course, congrats on the new job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackbolter Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 You can rappel Outer Space without using the Edge of Space anchors. A few years back a partner and I did the route in late March. Probably similar to conditions to now. The exception was that the descent gully was filled with snow and we only had rock shoes. We just decided to deal with the snow and wet feet as we headed up. When we were at the top we ran into a guide. Rather than downclimbing the gully in snow we partnered up with the guide and his client and negotiated a double rope rappel off the face. The first was off a tree on the top of the wall. The second was off a slung horn on library ledge and the fourth was off the last ledge around the tree after the easy 5th. I can't remember where we did the third rappel from. Bottom line, if you want to rap the wall bring two ropes. It is way faster and easier to hike the gully though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallstein Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 I did Iconoclast to EOS with my bro a couple of years ago, I think during the CC ropeup. The bolts below library ledge are in the middle of the pitch that connects Iconoclast to library ledge. It seemed to me they were in a funny place. I just clipped them and kept going to the ledge. As for EOS not nearly as heady and scary as one might think. Getting to the first bolt was exciting but after that the scaryness was over. I did the pitch as one long 200ft pitch to a natural belay real close to the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Wall - Think a 165 foot rope would go from the Iconoclast corner to the ledge? What about 150'? PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Many years ago, in a far away place, there existed a band of climbers much like those of the current thread. There also existed a pristine crag of exceptional quality with only two free routes on it. Both were trad. As technology progressed, power drills began appearing on rocks of all persuasions and the war began. It did not matter that the trad routes had been up for 25 years. It did not matter that the crag was 4.5 miles up Blodgett canyon and 600 ft up the talus. Nothing mattered. They had drills and they used them. Beside cracks, on rappel, before test climbing, etc. Beware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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