Jon, our esteemed moderator.

[Dennis_the_Menace]

As a dead "hero" I'm no good to my wife and kids.

[sexual_chocolate]

You know very well Retrosaurus made a typo. 20,000 is what he meant. And his point is valid. It's easy to second-guess from the safety and comfort of your arm-chair. Any fool can do that. And any fool can be an arm-chair hero. Try it when your own life is in danger, and you feel death knocking at your door. Let's see how selfish your genes are then.

[allthumbs]

I appologize to sexual chocolate, Beck and Dru. I was being a total asshole and for that I'm sorry. I'll read for awhile and not post negitive vibes...I promise. Forgive me all.

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

Yeah, but you guys are forgetting the video. I think it clearly shows that, at the moment of impact, his head jerks backward. But you know what? When I watched it again, I thought that perhaps it was a recoil, which would justify the government's position. I took a lot of flak for this conclusion, but heck, I had to say what I believed.

And, by the way, Trask never apologized! And I was being nice. You all can read the posts.

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[Lambone]

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

You know very well Retrosaurus made a typo. 20,000 is what he meant. And his point is valid. It's easy to second-guess from the safety and comfort of your arm-chair. Any fool can do that. And any fool can be an arm-chair hero. Try it when your own life is in danger, and you feel death knocking at your door. Let's see how selfish your genes are then.

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Look guys, I'm not arguin that, infact I'm agreeing with you, check out my original post-

"It is easy to speculate about what a "wussie" he was up on Everest, at least while you sit behind your computer down here at sea level...

The simple fact is that Anatoli was probably the only one fit enough to be out there in the middle of the night cunducting a rescue. Thats how it goes...If Krackhead had been out there too, it would have been just one ore body for him to drag back to camp."

I am disagreeing with the attitude that Dennis has. Of course the first rule of any rescue is to asses the dangers, and make sure the accident scene is safe for the rescuers.

But Dennis is saying that he would not help a stranger on a mountain, period. Where's the brotherhood, the kinship? We are all tied to a common bond when we are in the mountains, regardless of any language barrier, or etc...Sure competition on a mountain is normal, common, and to be expected when there are multiple parties on a route or a face. But that has to end if someone gets in trouble. All climbers have to chip in to help their fellow climbers.

Let me give an example, I'll try to make it short. To buddies of mine from Montana were on the Infinate Spur last year. There was another party of well know Canadian climbers not far above them. Glen and Gren got avalanched on in a couloir one day. The party above wrote them off as dead, and phoned the rangers with a cell, then they kept climbing. The rangers went and picked up Glen's basecamp, and called their parents to notify them that their children had died in Alaska. Well gues what, they wern't dead, and they soon caught up to the Canadians who were quite suprised.

My question is this. Why didn't the Canadians invesigate to see if their fellow climbers needed help? (They may have, I haven't heard their point of view) The point is, what if my buddies were stuck to die below them, and had been just simply abandoned. Is that right???

 

[ScottP]

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

I think the pause is only noticeable at very low film-speed, which would allow us to view a natural body reflex mechanism. When a body-part encounters a resistance, it compensates by moving in the direction of the push, does it not? And if the push is so sudden, and of such high velocity as what a high caliber bullet would cause, there would be a pause before the body would be able to reflex, no?

Anyway, this was just my theory, after seeing the film for the first time. The show that I saw (on The Discovery channel) didn't talk about skull fragments moving rear-ward...they alleged that the skull had been doctored.

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Looking at the film at normal speed, IMO there is still a pause.

As for the fragments..

that's why Jackie scrambled onto the trunk of the car-to retrieve the pieces.

 

[sexual_chocolate]

Hey trask, it's all good....Things obviously get heated up in here. I don't think you're any more to blame than anyone else who was posting on that thread. I think I was doing my fair share of stirring the pot.

I was honestly playing around a bit, so I apologize for that too. No hard feelings, I hope!

 

[Terminal_Gravity]

Haveing an every man for himself attitude is total weak bullshit; at altitude, on a plane with terrorists or anywhere. The absolutly only thing that is moral or ethical is to do one's best to help save a life.

You would have a much greater chance leaving your kids parentless if every one had the attitude of fuck them I worring about myself.

It might just be your ass on the line some time. If you have never lost someone very close to you, maybe you can't understand how important it is to the loved one's to have every thing possible done to save a person even if ultimately they die while you are trying.

Climbing can be dangerous (duh). Part of the exposure equation is that you may need to help someone in harms way. It is a moral imperitive.

I helped get a true idiot from another party out of a cravasse in the Himalayas. Clearly, he should have not been there. He and his friends had the gear but not the knowledge to save himself. He would have died if not for us. I'm sure that he learned alot from the experience.

All you have to do is imagine the family of the dieing climber and put your own families faces on theirs. Don't ever kid yourself, no matter how experienced you are, it could be you.

[Dennis_the_Menace]

My opinion was limited to the very specific, energy sucking and particular situation of the so called "death zone". (i.e. could Jon K. have helped) A climber cannot go there and expect that he will be rescued. He must plan on relying only on himself. My opinion would change if the geography involved was rescue from a crevasse in Boston Basin or off of Baker. Antoli saved several lives, no question. Even Beck Weathers passed on the first chopper flight in '96 to let the other injured climber go first - could I have done what these men did? Don't know until I was in that situation, but I hope so.

[sexual_chocolate]

"If you have never lost someone very close to you, maybe you can't understand how important it is to the loved one's to have every thing possible done to save a person even if ultimately they die while you are trying.

Climbing can be dangerous (duh). Part of the exposure equation is that you may need to help someone in harms way. It is a moral imperitive."

Ummm, when engaged in something as silly and self-serving as mountain climbing, all bets are off. "Gee, I'll go and get myself into a bind CLIMBING MOUNTAINS, but yeah, you've got a MORAL IMPERATIVE to help me out."

HAH! Good luck, fella! YOU got yourself out there.

 

I think the only moral imperative is this: If you have children and family, and you really care about them, STAY OFF THE GODDAMN MOUNTAIN!

 

[ScottP]

quote:

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Originally posted by Retrosaurus:

'Bone,

I wonder if your opinion would be any different if you had just spent the last 8 hrs above 2,000 ft in the death zone?

Let us know when you get there.

-Mitch

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I gotta agree. Hindsight is cheap.

When the human body goes into survival mode, non-essential functions are shut down (Less circulation to the extremities to preserve core warmth for example). This applies to mental functions as well due to how they are linked to physiology.

To say that "...it's an unwritten rule that if a climber or team of climbers is in trouble and you are in the area, you drop what ever the hell you are doing and go help out.." is easy when you aren't just able to keep yourself alive.

[Downhill]

I'm just an arm-chair fool but my hero says "A climber always brings home his dead."

[Beck]

Mattp painted it pretty clear about the high altitude attitude, there is less of a "rescue fellow climbers" mentality there versus continental mountaineering. I feel there is less and less of a "help others" mentality out there nowadays regardless, it's probably a result of the "I ME MINE" materialism and self involvement that pervades our society.

As for an ethical imperitive for an average citizen to help out in a non mountaineering first aid situation, there's a caveat that you "do not place yourself at risk" Risk is to be left to trained rescuers (I.E. Firemen, EMT's, SAR teams) and perhaps this mentality invades clients on guided expeditions who are not neccessarily climbers because they love climbing and would not be inculturated with the mountain code of "help other climbers in distress"- I've seen reports of non assistance in AINAM annuals on Denali, so it's not just in the Himalaya.

[Terminal_Gravity]

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

I think the only moral imperative is this: If you have children and family, and you really care about them, STAY OFF THE GODDAMN MOUNTAIN!

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Sexual Chocolate; I think that you are being short sighted. Clearly Scott Fischer was selfish and cared less sbout his family then he should have. Do you know much about Ed Vestiurs (sp?)? I think that he is a perfect example of a top climber that is not a self serving ego-maniac. He is a good father and husband and climbs in a manner that proves it.

You climb, maybe not at altitude, but some bolt could fail or you could get hit in the head by a falling rock and you could get seriously hurt or dead. Is that fair to your wife? I think if you climb responsibly, that it is. I'm sure you do to.

(Oops SC, I said "your wife"; I let your gender (and preference) out of the bag.)

 

[Dru]

Maybe Kennedy was an alien?? Did they get autopsy footage?

[ScottP]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dru:

Maybe Kennedy was an alien?? Did they get autopsy footage?

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You asked... http://www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/jfk-autopsy.html

[This message has been edited by ScottP (edited 10-24-2001).]

[Beck]

I can't even tell for sure that Sexual Chocolate is a climber, with posts like that. You know what I mean? What's that stuff?

Does he sound like a mountain dude or a bored housewife on her third box of bonbons?

not to mention all the topic changing spray stuff, Mormon Nailer? Kennedy assinations? Doesn't that deserve it's own thread, like "Sexual Chocolate Gets Off on Nerd Stuff- Back and to the left!"

My apologies to you, Sexy C.

[Terminal_Gravity]

Don't get me wrong. I think that incompetent self serving idiots that go into the mountains are one of the most loathsome forms of humans. And to some extent I think that people that pay to be guided up 8000m peaks (and the whore guides that guide them) deserve what they get.

But that does not justify a "let them die" attitude in the mountains. It is not always the idiots that get in trouble.

[goatboy]

My nominees?

Anyone who goes out and risks their personal safety to help strangers -- maybe it's their job, maybe they're volunteering.

Boukreev did it, because it was his job and because that's what kind of person he was.

My friend George, who was a firefighter in NY, died trying to pull people out of the world trade center -- he was supposedly high up on the 60th floor or so when the whole thing came down.

Anyone that volunteers on SAR teams, or even people who TEACH wilderness first aid -- these folks are my nominees.

I agree that what Alex Lowe did was huge and unbelievable -- but those are terms that characterize much of his amazing life. We can't all be Alex Lowes, but we CAN all contribute something.

I have no idea what it's like to be at very high altitude, so I can't critize the choices people made up there -- but I DO think there's a distinction between avoiding a rescue because you're too tired and your safety is at risk, and people who avoid helping others just because they don't personally know them.

steve