Rodchester

Hans...I am with you on that one. I trust Chad as being honest and upfront on these things. I've met him a few times and know a lot of people that know him. He has a good reputation. He ripped it!!!

A far as the Crampon issue goes, it all depends on what you'll be climbing in them. If you are just crossing gl;acxiers and basically kicking steps up moderate slopes, the sundowners should do all right. But if you are looking in to climbing where you actually need the front points I'd want more of a boot. 2 Cents I do agree that I'd waterproof whatever you use.

man Chad is the man...I heard, some years ago that he came within 15 minutes of Alex's rcord on Ama Dablam. Looks like he got it this time. Of course some one wuill say it was an aid ascent because he took food from others. Chad

I'd agree with AlpineK that it can get pretty rough up there pretty quick in June. The snow and ice can stay around well into July. I wouldn't call it rime ice, like you see so much of on Mt. Hood, but my expierence is that snow and ice are still often on the high peaks and can make things slick (thin verglass and/or snow). Call it what you want. So be prepared on the higher peaks for precip in the form of snow and ice. East facing ridge routes SHOULD be better right now. In the first weekend of Sept. one year we got it high on the Grand and it was like early winter conditions. They have a short season. The climbing rangers ther climb and most are damn good and experienced. They have actual beta and have actually climbed routes. It could be a good time to do snow/ice routes. NW Ice Coulior on the Middle and the Middle Teton Glacier both look fun...though I've never been on them. The AAC ranch is the deal of the century. Have fun and if you want to get out of Jackson go over to Dubois and eat at the Cowboy Cafe and party hard at the Rustic Pine, far less tourists.

Distel32: I got to thinking about it and i had remembered that it only took like 150 feet to reach TV. So I looked it up and you are correct, it takes a good bit longer. TV for a falling man is normally around 125-130 mph. But it can go up to 200 with a powerdive. Very high altitude jumpers have hit 600 mph Any way, the one web site said it usually takes about 400 yards and another said 21 seconds. That struck me as kind of long, but hey what the hell do I know. Anyway, 100 foot fall onto rock is most likely going to kill as would a 1000 foot fall. :cr osseye:

Actually I think they are hinged. I think that the front of the bar hinges at th point that it connects to the front section of the crampon. Here is what one web page said about them: I'd HOPE that if you can trek in them, they're hinged? But who knows Check this: Are they Hinged or Not?

One thing to think about: What is the difference between a 100 foot fall and a 1000 foot fall? Correct me if I'm wrong, you still hit terminal velocity on each and the impact is the same. The difference is mental.

As far as the impact of a fall goes, I have always related that to the available gear or how protectable a route is. i.e. Upper exum Ridge the Frction Pitch is a great example. It is 5.5 (or 5.4?) but it is said that it is an exposed pitch and that the crux move is hgard to protect. It doesn't change the rating. Also some guide books will go as far to note that a route or a move or a pitch is an X, or one that will result in a death if the leader falls (Likely to anyways). The rating of the climb stays the same.

Hmmmm...well our definitions are clearly different. In my experience, exposure is mental and has nothing to do with the fall impact. It is more perception than fact. As I said earlier, you could be on a traverse 1000 feet up, but if you fell you'd only hit a ledge 10 feet below. So even though the actual fall is only 10 feet to the deck, you feel exposed to the 1000 foot fall. Take a cool climb on good holds that happens to be in a Chimney that if you fell on without protection you'd fall 100 feet. MOST would not feel any, or at least much, exposure because they are in a chimney. Now take the identical route, in diffculty and holds blah blah blah, and now take it out of the chimney, put it on a face 1000 feet above the valley floor (though only 100 above the start ledge) and say it is on something like Devils tower and each side cuts away. You now have exposure on all sides and the mind feels exposed. (Some don't get spoked at all. Some get used to it. Some never do). The diffculty is the same, still a 3rd class, or a 4th class or a 5.8. It doesn't matter. But the exposure changes. But htechange in exposure does not, in my mind, change the diffculty rating. Otherwise the Upper Exum Ridge would be a 5.8. And Tewinot's East Face would be 5.6. It's not. At most its 5.0. Most call it exposed 4th class. (The East Face is the main route...right?) Just my understanding and my experience.

Klenke: Your example of the 10 foot wall in a forst misses thpint of the difference between exposure and the impact of a fall. Exposure is mental and has nothing to do with the damage that will occur in a fall. In your example there is no danger of being hurt, but nor is there exposure. Exposure to me is not exposure to injury, but more how your mind perceives the situtation. It USUALLY makes you feel much higher off of the deck than you actually are.

Yes, but no. I said he got it right in simple terms. And I agree with it in a general sense. But your implication is correct: that the moves are the moves regardless of how far you'd fall or how screwed up you'd get in a fall. Exposure has nothing to do with the damage that will occur in a fall. Exposure, at least in my mind is more mental. You could be six feet off of a ledge that would catch you in fall, but the exposure could be wicked. And that could be on a class 3, class 4 or some aid route. So no direct correlation in the sense of actually rating it, but in a simplistic and tongue-in-cheek manner, his point is on target. But thanks for calling me on it, you're right.

Lummox hit it on the head in simple terms. I have heard a FEW people say that exposure goes into rating the difficulty, or should IU say the technical rating of a route. I disagree. The difficulty, or the technical rating of a route, is what it is regardless of exposure, length, or gear placements. That is why you see notes in guidebooks that say things like exposed mid-fifth class moves, difficult to protect. It may make it feel like a 5.8, but its not. All that said, ratings, as well all know, are not a perfect science or measurement.

Lowe Quark Lowe also used to make a roll-top style summit pack that weighed next to nothing...but it was very small and was a true summit pack. basicaly a medium sized stuffsack with two straps. I wouldn't call it an alpine climbing pack. It was very bare-bones...I don't think they're making it anymore.

Consideer this one as well...light, simple, and enough volume to do a few days... Alpine Attack 60

Eric is right that they won't last, but for lightweight and use on snow and basic glaciers they rock.

I thought the Stubai ran about $100.00? So are they free? Alum Crampons I have the Kong 12 point and love them. Climb Axe has them for for $59.00...pretty damn cheap.

Hey Phatty... Way to be. Did you get boots for the wife? Tell her from me and T.

I have new-matic style in steel (Grivel) and aluminum (Camp) ...and would buy them all over again.

Stephen: My understanding is that he is in Seattle most of the time...

A buddy and I went up to do Ingals with the idea that we would traverse all three peaks if the conditions were right. We bivied about half-way from Ingals pass to Ingals lake. Oh man, it got cold on Saturday night, and windy too. Soooo, we were slow to get out our bags and sacks. Lets just say we were prepared for warmer weather. We ended up not getting up until 7:30 a.m. Running later than we had planned, we decided just to do the east ridge of the main peak (North). Good conditions getting up the snow gully and no problems transitioning to rock. There is still a good bit of snow up there, but nothing that will inhibit an ascent. At the notch there was a lot of snow, after you pass through the notch. It was like being in a snow cave...but there is an excellent opening between the snow and the rock face that you can climb up and out of the snow. The rock was actually fairly dry and presented no problems. The rest of the pitches were snow free and dry. Just before the last pitch we had to cross a small snow tongue. I was glad that I had an ice axe, but I don't think it was needed. Also, this snow tongue should retreat in the next few days. We summited and went over to the south face. There was no one on the mountain. We had heard someone on the summit earlier, but they were gone by the time that we got there. As we rapped down there was one party of two siting on the large ledge on the south face. One of the guys was NOT having fun and they were in the process of bailing. With no one in the way, we continued to rap down the south face. We saw one other group of two at the base eating and contimplating the route. We encouraged them to go for it and glissaded down to our gear. On the entire trip we saw only four people, two parties of two. What are the odds of that on a Sunday on Ingals peak? (I know there is a scramble down route, but we rapped because there was no one on it).

or D. None of the above.

Whopper, who posts here, calls it choss-a-val ridge.

No....

I tend to agree with Lummox...with a rack like that you have to, but seriously. I use mine year round and am usually only in it for weekend trips. If it is that bad out, I'm not out there or I'm on my way out to the car and then to the bar. I suppose if you were using it for longer trips....it would be useful.