CascadeClimber

Just a few observations: - Remember that the group that posts here is in no way a representative sample of the climbers (who are *not* a community) in this state. - There are many people reading these posts and not posting themselves (lurking). Including, I would guess, the people in question and the land managers. - Homo pussy? Is this grade school? If you were one of the people working on the routes in question would you stick your head up in this forum? A portion of the posters here are starting to sound like a lynch mob. Remember that people were once burned at the stake for being witches and the "community" supported the action. And worse has happened when a group of people assumed that they were the majority b/c they didn't choose to hear the other voices. If you really want to know what they are thinking, then go forward with an olive branch, not a crow-bar, chisel and childish name-calling. And if your mind is closed, then don't pretend it isn't. It also occurs to me that bolted routes means more people which means my "alpine" playground (questionable in my book since it is a stone's throw from a freeway) is more crowded (by "lesser" climbers). Anyone care to step out from behind the convenient defense of ethics and fess up to that fear? Here, I'll go first: It is precisely the reason I don't want the west-side road opened on Rainier. Climbers, in general, are fond of anarchy. Note the fear of the land managers making a rule. We think of that as the worst possible outcome. And the thought of getting together to make a decision as a group? To be a community? I'd love to see it happen and I have no clue how to do it: This is a group that dislikes crowds, rules, and red tape ('cept on that cherry project Remember folks, opinions are like assholes: Everyone has one, and thinks theirs is the only one that doesn't stink. -CC

I guess I fall on the more lenient side of this argument. As much as I don't like to see wild places cluttered with human garbage (trails, horse manure, chopped trees, bolts, etc.), I also clip *every* hanger I see in the alpine, regardless of the who, what, where, when, why, and how of it. And until I am will to bypass those "unnecessary" bolts (and slings and pins and other fixed gear), I don't think I have any right to complain about them. But about that disgraceful mess on Lundin... -CC

There is a great little shop in Shasta City, The Fifth Season. They are friendly and usually have previous or same-day beta on conditions. http://www.thefifthseason.com/ Also, check www.mtncommunity.org. A couple frequent posters from that site on on Shasta this weekend. -CC

www.mtncommunity.org, a replacement for rec.climbing.useful, premiered on Monday, March 19, 2001.The site is similar in format to CascadeClimbers.com, but is not geographically specific. It is a great place to get info on areas other than the PNW, and the standard gear tips, etc. www.mtncommunity.org also has a Backcountry forum specifically for hikers and backpackers, and "The Pub", a place for outdoor enthusiasts to shoot the shit about topics other than climbing. Come on over and check it out. (posted with permission from Jon) -CascadeClimber [This message has been edited by CascadeClimber (edited 03-23-2001).]

Thanks, Mike. And thanks for the mention on your site, too. I ended up with 54 pitches this year!

As my partner and I skinned the concrete-hard snow in the Commonwealth on March 4, I stopped to take a picture of our objective: Red Mountain. As I start to ski away, he says, "Hey, want your gloves?" I'd dropped them in the process of taking the picture. I picked them up and continued, glad he was behind me to correct may error and save me from losing a $50 pair of gloves. Unfortunately, he was in the lead when I took a picture just past the flat nob at the base of the west ridge, so when this gumby dropped his gloves again, they stayed there. I realized it about 30 minutes later. Sooo, if you happen to find a pair of black Marmot X-Trainer gloves, size medium, in the vicinity of the west ridge of Red, I'd be quite happy to get them back. Red faced with my tail between my legs- Gumby (aka CascadeClimber)

I suspect that the skiing window on Adams will be short this year. The south side gets blasted by the sun and in recent years it has turned into a mess of rotten sastrugi by mid-summer. I tried to ski from Piker's in early August, 1999 and ended up taking my skis off and walking most of the way back to the lunch counter. It was the mogul field from hell. Go early! But about Hood- I've skied twice from the true summit and I have to say that shooting through the Pearly Gates with that 'schrund smiling up at me from below is one of the more thrilling experiences I've had skiing the volcanoes. Shasta- Mt. Shasta City is a very cool little town. There is a mountain shop, The Fifth Season, full of nice, friendly folks, great cragging nearby, and for a real treat stop off at Stewart Mineral Springs. -CC

No crevasses, no avy danger. In fact, it was colder on Shasta than on Rainier two days earlier. We didn't take a rope. Didn't use one on Casaval, either. It's a personal choice and you should make yours separate of what I did. I've climbed all the volcanoes in Washington, plus Hood, Middle Sister, Broken Top, and Shasta. Happy climbing- -CC PS- We had great weather on Shasta. Two weeks later two experienced climbers died from exposure in a whiteout. Don't underestimate it. [This message has been edited by CascadeClimber (edited 02-25-2001).]

I climbed Shasta at the veru beginning of April last year. It was a joy. The very accessible south side routes were all in fine shape. We intended to climb Casaval, but after looking up and all that snow on the Avy Gulch route we couldn't resist the urge to ski it. We camped at the "lake" and had it our to ourselves, a stark contrast to the summer hordes. We had great cramponing on crisp neve in the morning and skied from the base of the summit pyramid to the car. From the lake to the car the snow was glorious corn, some of the best turns I've had on a volcano. Casaval, which I climbed a few years ago, is a more entertaining climb, but wouldn't ski nearly as well. It is much less challenging, technically, than any of the routes on Rainier Go early, take skis, go high, enjoy. -CC

How about Dynafit TLT4 rando boots for $165? http://www.rei-outlet.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=8000&prrfnbr=4649384

Ray- What about the Grivel Rambocomps? I heard that they climb great and come off real easy like... -CC

MH Altitude: Suck factor high. $50 plus two tubes of seam grip and they still leak like a sieve. I like my $30 Gtex ski gloves better. Don't waste your $$ unless you really are going high. -CC

Hmm, maybe it is just bad karma at Loose Lady? I almost walked away from my Suunto down lower. Both the aluminum frame and the spring are bending. The spring is a bitch to bend back- I have to use pliers. I think the spring catches on clothes and gear and gets bent. I'm going to try the wire gates next trip. -CC

I had a screw come off my Trango "unClipper" Sunday on Loose Lady. I was climbing up the slab and I suddenly heard a screw go falling down. Not good. It seems like they bend too easily and the spring clip separates from the aluminium frame, allowing screws to just fall off. -CC

Just to clear up any potential confusion, and consequential further disparagement of me, I was on It's Only Phair last weekend, I am a Yank, and I was driving a 4Runner. But my 4Runner is gray, not white, I was there Sunday, not Saturday, and I got all of my whimpering, cursing, hangdogging, and hollering for the weekend done on Night N Gale on Saturday. -CC (Cascade Climber, not Canadian Club)

I was actually on Night N Gale. We talked to the Sheep Party after crossing the river, but didn't get any names or see them again. Their car was still at the gravel pit when we left. -CC

Jon- You are clearly very passionate about this issue and that is something that I respect. I don't have a firm opinion yet and that is why I am curious about what people are thinking. Again, I am not advocating bolts every five feet and totally "safe" idiot-proof routes. But I do wonder where the line is. What if the route was originally soloed? Is it then only for soloists? And do you believe that once the line has been freed, then it should no longer be aided? Even with "clean" aid? Should the ladder be removed from the second step now that Anker has freed it? Following that, once the line has been soloed, should fixed gear, including bolts, be removed? I don't think anyone is saying this, but it is a reasonably logical progression to the line of reasoning and illustrates how we want absolute rules until we don't. What about "other" installations, such as memorial plaques and monstrous bolt installations (for the purpose of instruction)? I'm thinking of Lundin in particular. Has that route been desecrated? Maybe we need to start a new thread here, "Ethics"? -CC

I'm enjoying this lively discussion as much because it hasn't deteriorated into a flame-war as for its content. I'm posting this response to try to illustrate how gray an area this is, not because I disagree with the contrary posts. That being said, I guess my point is that words like "improve", "better", "safe", "harder", and "style" are all subjective. Royal Robbins put up many first ascents in tennis shoes. If I repeat his routes in slippers that, in my book, is not the same style: His ascent was more difficult and employed less technology. He also chopped half of a Warren Harding route (the name escapes me) and later wished he hadn't b/c he came to respect the difficulty of the aid line and the work Harding did to place the bolts on lead. Becky put up first ascents for years without the North Cascades highway. Does it improve the style of those climbs to repeat them with the benefit of "highway aid"? And just because someone can climb 5.13 free does not mean that it is easier for them to step into aiders and climb A4 or 5. So how do we define "harder" and "improved style"? What about a 5.13 sport climber establishing a 5.11 route with groundfall potential at every clip? Are all subsequent climbers required to risk death to repeat the route just b/c the first ascensionist felt the route was too "easy" to need "safe" protection? Don't get me wrong here, I don't really want bolts splattered all over the place, either. But I think climbers tend to become very close-minded about the "right" or "proper" way to climb. Usually the right amount of protection is just enough for me to get a buzz without fear of imminent death. Your experience may vary. ;-) -CC [This message has been edited by CascadeClimber (edited 02-12-2001).]

Dane- Thanks again for letting me finish my lead on Loose Lady before you rapped. For the record, how long was three minutes, really? ;-) CC

Following this line of logic, it seems like you would say that today's high-standard rock climbers are spoiling hard aid lines in Yosemite by freeing them, instead of climbing them on aid, like they were originally put up. Or that retrofitting a 1/4" Leeper with a new 3/8" rawl is wrecking the climb because you know the hanger isn't going to fail. If the line was first led with terradactyls, flexible crampons, and Chouinard screws do you use the same? I realize this is a slippery slope, but technology has changed and continues to change climbing. Test pieces of the past become moderate trade routes as our tools become better and our sense of what is possible changes. My two cents- CC

Update: I skied the Alpental slush and rain all day Sunday with these gloves. My hands were dry at the end of the day. The only complaint I have is that they are a little hard to get on with wet hands. Still, this is the best $30 I've spent on gear in a long time. I may even pick up a second pair. -CC

Costco in Issaquah is selling Grandhoe Freeride gloves with a leather palm and a *Goretex Hangtag* for $30. I have no idea how good they really are, but $30 seems like a good deal for GT gloves. -CC

I think you are incorrect about Waite for Spring. And it is Deeping (not Deepening) Wall. Perhaps this will help: http://www.bivouac.com/casbc/18jan01photo1.htm -CC

I was perusing the second Nelson/Potterfield guide last night and noticed that the approach description for The Pencil is a bit on the non-descript side and doesn't seem to match the picture (from the picture it looks to be in the drainage north of Falls Creek). Though I was on Drury last weekend, the clouds prevented us from seeing much of anything from the base of the canyon. Can anyone clarify the approach? Anyone have any recent beta? -CC

I think what Colin is saying is that there needs to be some editorial control so that the reports are limited to true stories of significant merit. If so, I agree. Of course, there needs to be some agreement on the definitions of "true" and "significant". Seems like maybe a board of Northwest climbers could work something out that included an electronic forum and an annual publication. The board would need to be comprised of experienced and respected Northwest climbers. Anyone care to volunteer? Mr. Nelson? Mr. Skoog? Did I see your hands raised? -CC