B Deleted_Beck

howdy why do all of the 4-knot cowstails i see use figates for the top two knots? the idea of a 4-knot cowstail is redundancy.... so why use a knot you can't expansion-load as your redundant knot? if the bight fails, your line is now expansion loaded on a knot that can collapse under expansion load. the figure 8 also uses a lot of rope.. the knot that comes to mind, to me, is the alpine butterfly.. you can load any end and in any direction (so long as you don't expand the loop), and it uses less rope. and, if i'm not mistaken, the alpine butterfly is stronger than the figate. where's the error in my thinking? thanks

and that'll do it for me. thanks, again, for the help offered.

' "ahem," as though you're gonna take me back to school or something? how does any of the above contradict anything i've written? in the context of thin-walled, shock-loading, SOLO parts, casting is, in fact, extremely weak, relative to forging. i'm sure you (ambiguous) can engineer beautifully stout cast parts- my father did 10 years at Precision Cast Parts in portland. but in the current, applicable context, cast aluminum is not appropriate. and nobody is going to disagree with that.... so since that isn't your point, what IS your point?

why, and why?

Where ya been, man? Why does this surprise you? Ever seen a BD Guide? It's cast. Ever seen a figure 8? Also cast. A Sticht plate? Take a guess. I could go on... Cast rope gear is nothing new. 9/16" tubular has a breaking strength of somewhere around 1,500 to 2,300 lbs. 8mm cord comes in around 2,900 to 3,200 lbs. How much do you weigh, man? I'm in mountain rescue, educated by Rigging for Rescue, and we routinely use 9/16" and 1" tubular webbing and 8mm cord in all our rigging systems. And we're operating with forces much much greater than your rappel kit will ever see. Ya need to know yer math... negative. you're confusing casting and forging. cast aluminum is extremely weak, and i'll bet a dollar you couldn't find a single piece of load-bearing cast aluminum equipment in modern production. cast metal parts have no structural plasticity. if you take a hammer to a piece of forged steel equipment, so long as you can still get it to link up to your harness/rope/carabiners/whatever, it's not going to break- ask me how i know. whack a piece of cast steel, and it'll likely just crack. ALL of the steel equipment we use in rope access/fall prevention/protection is forged. D-rings, carabiners, screw links, grabs, fig-ates, descenders, hooks, snap-links, anchors, etc, etc. and though i'm not in rescue, i'm willing to bet another dollar that ALL of the aluminum load-bearing equipment you use is forged. i would have made the same bet regarding steel equipment, except that i now happen to own a piece of cast steel equipment. but i bet it's extremely rare. as to my inhibitions regarding sport equipment- my "math" is just fine. i've done my share of bullshit OSHA-required coursework. it's not about break strength- it's about how much sawing/abrasion/heat/chemical exposure/etc it'll take to saw/abrade/melt/dissolve the equipment. bigger is always better, in this regard, and that's why we're not allowed to use sport equipment in RAFP. you'll NEVER see human weight bear on rope skinnier than 11mm, and for lifeline placement, 5/8-1", depending on the material, for a minimum 22kN rating. for webbing, you won't see anything less tha 1.5" tubular, and often 2", and 2" minimum for harnesses and seats. this as my background, i don't think it's irrational for me to be apprehensive. but i'm obviously pushing my fears aside and going with it- i DID use the v-twin, did i not? i've embraced a small pile of aluminum sport equipment, and i even bought a 10,3 climbing rope- ,7 smaller than the smallest rope i've ever used. i'm sure i'll get over it.

US Outdoor Store in downtown has them: http://www.usoutdoorstore.com/outlet/dmm-v-twin-belay-device.html?cvsfa=2293&cvsfe=2&cvsfhu=3134303533 thanks for the lead, man.. i went and grabbed one this afternoon. i took it over to RB and gave it a handful of fairly hard raps... didn't even get warm. mine is virtually flash-free... no sharp edges, no burrs. all the same, the teeth looked a little too aggressive for my liking, so i went ahead and whittled on 'em a little with some 150 grain and smoothed over the points a little. i actually havent looked at my rope yet, but it didn't feel like it was scraping it. my only problem is that it's cast... whats up with that?? maybe i just havent been paying attention, but i don't think i've ever seen cast rope gear. i love the versatility of all this sport gear, but i don't love how flimsy it all seems. 9/16" webbing for anchors? singling with <8mm? uh uh.

I don't usually rap at 30mph, do you? no- probably not. yet. but with this new semi-static, i gotta tell you, i sure have a lot less apprehension about really lettin it rip. either way, the V-twin seems to be the peace of mind i'm looking for. i'll try it for rapping, and keep the ATC for belaying. thanks gentlemen. i'll still be really interested to know if anybody has used the ATS, and what they think of it.

im liking what im reading about the v-twin. coming from the industrial size, i really don't have a problem with some steel gear.

sterling advertises the ATS as rappellable, but i cant find a single piece of evidence that it's ever been used in a hanging vertical wall rap. im sure it has, but that's apparently not what they had in mind. seems like it'd be good for heat like a figate, but way more versatile and controllable.. i've shied away from the racks thus far.. they just don't seem like much fun. maybe i'll see if anyone in my circle has one and try it. are they generally steel or aluminum? i did just watch a video on ATC and heat... according to these guys, and ATC can get up to 200-250 degrees during a long, fast abseil, which is way shy of the 460 degree melting point of nylon... but they were of the opinion that this was still hot enough to damage rope. not melt it off and drop you, but screw up the core somehow. http://www.topclimbing.com/general/episode-9-can-a-rappel-device-burn-through-my-rope/

new to the sport end of things, i've only been using an ATC for a couple of months now. i do quite a bit of rappelling... not fancy "extreme" rapping, but i like to get on it some and try new stuff. i've noticed this is chewing up my new ATC pretty quick. i've also noticed it gets hotter than i'm used to a rap device getting. inspecting a pretty new (3 months) length of Edelweiss semi-static last night, it seems like the sheath is wearing faster than i'd like. i'm diligent with rope guards, so i have to wonder if excess heat is prematurely aging it...? whatever the case... even if i don't saw through the ATC or melt my line on a long, fast rap, i'm thinking maybe the ATC should be relegated to belaying and rappels-incident-to-climbing, and try something else for dedicated rapping. now that i've been introduced to the world of new fangled fancy sport gear, i'm not going back to the figure 8. so my questions- are my heat concerns with the ATC valid? anybody used the Sterling ATS, and what do you think? would another dual-purpose device work better than the ATC? what about the reverso? what other non-tail-coiling devices should i look at for dedicated rappel? thanks

i don't even leave my boots up top. everything comes down but the bathmat rope guard.

i've only communicated with two people there so far.. one was an american kid interested in climbing routes, which i couldn't tell him much about.. but i pointed out the trail and bolts and never saw him again (maybe his body is still lying at the bottom of the wall?). the other was a kid at the bottom taking pictures of us rapping down. i waved.. he waved back enthusiastically. he tried to climb up the mud slope, presumedly to talk to us, but wiped out 5 or 6 times before giving up and heading back to the trail. he might have been russian... american kids usually don't wave "enthusiastically." american kids usually aren't enthusiastic period. anybody have a theory about the rubbers? 95% of them don't look used... unless these guys have sooper small peckers. are they getting them for free at the college and just throwing them all over the place for fun...? or do you 'spose there's really THAT much poon bangin going on up there?

well it was plenty dry a couple weeks ago. it stayed wet last year likely because we had such a ridiculously wet spring. other rocks would dry out by morning, but, as somebody pointed out, a norte facing rock will take longer. and i can see how mosquitoes could be an issue down there... bobby and i already have bites. false spring brought them all out, but if we can get another decent freeze, it should kill the fuckers off and give us a relatively GOOD mosquito season this time around. last year was utterly ridiculous everywhere. i cant tell you how much gear i ruined with DEET.

what's the name of the line that tops out above the ranger tab?

my buddy and i went and rapped some of the taller walls this afternoon. it's very, very slippy right now. we jugged back up after the first rap, but i'm nursing a strained rotator cuff, so once was enough. we scrambled back up the one spot where you can scramble without jugging the next trip up, and then took the trail for the rest of the time. just wanted to get some good leg exercise, and have an excuse to bust out the ropes for something. one of my ropes got absolutely caked with mud from the jugging... it's bad enough i might just go ahead and throw it in the washing machine.

i've been out there a few times in the last couple weeks, since the weather's been better. after a few days of no rain (and some freezing nights), the rock was basically dry with just a little bit of slippy algae in some spots. totally climbable. i don't know what any of the lines are called, so i can't tell you what i've climbed, but everything we tried was good. until a couple days ago, the condom carpet wasn't even muddy.. just frozen and firm.. but it's fairly muddy now. we just stayed on the rocks and did't have any problems with mud, last time out. now after a day of rain, though, i'm sure it's shitty again... hopefully we'll get a couplefew clear days and it'll dry out.

howdy.. i'm ben, and i'm a noob. looking to do at least weekly climb days at rocky butte. all i've done so far is top rope, and i'm actually totally good with that for at least the immediate future. i just want to work on my technique, by going up and down, up and down, up and down. naturally, it'd be awesome if i could get some more experienced partners to climb with, but i'm not discriminating- anyone with a harness, ATC, shoes, and chalk may apply, from experienced people to virginal noobs. i'm a confident and competent belayer and rappeller, and can show you how to do both of these safely. i have everything needed for topping... it'd be great if you had a rope, to share the wear and tear, but not necessary. email, PM, post bkb0000@comcast.net

as far as rocket science goes- no, none of this stuff seems to be. but there is a lot to be said for question-marks- is this knot appropriate for this application? is that ice stable? is that rock stable? will this snow-bridge hold my weight? is that a drift, or a snow bridge? if things get really shitty up here, will this jacket keep me alive? what do i do if it rains? what things should i have in my pack that might save my life if things get shitty? what's just wasted weight? is this little fray in my rope bad? if i screw this ice screw into this 3" ice crust, will it arrest me in a fall, or just blow out and chase me down the mountain, and tink me on the head at the bottom just to add insult to injury (death)? sounds like you've got the gear- now you just need a climbing partner who knows a bit more than you. i just took my buddy rock climbing at rocky butte today for the first time in his life. i'm a straight up noob myself, but with my knowledge of ropes and anchors, and our combined equipment, we had a great day rapping and top-roping the taller walls.. we won't try lead or trad until one of us has had some pointers from somebody who knows what the hell he's doing, so that we don't end up with those questions... will this hold? is this safe? can i do this? etc. we've got the motivation and the gear- but there's no point dying just because you didn't know not to back-clip, for example. my perspective.

great pics... i so badly wish i was climbing shit right now.

having some expensive hobbies, and being sick of it being expensive, i've sort of come to the conclusion that it's pretty much bullshit that this stuff has to cost a lot of money. im done spending an assload of money just to enjoy what God gave us for free. might be a little riskier- but we've got way better technology and knowledge than the forefathers of climbing had, and most of them made it.

know what i've done? just browsed Google Earth with the "terrain" option ON. then i float around the pacific northwest looking at different peaks... when i see something that looks interesting- the right pitch, right elevation, right location, i'll search for it here and at summitpost, and get some first hand opinions of the climb.. then put it on the list, or not.

i'm a new guy too... plenty of trail/off trail nav experience, even some low-speed, low-elevation "mountaineering"... but zero snow/ice summit experience. i figure low elevation buttes in the winter are gonna be a good place to start. that way you're not talking anything too technical or too steep, less risk of personal injury or death, but you're still getting some good pick/crampon climbing experience. i plan to do NoCal's Black Butte, if it would ever snow over (my father lives about 5 minutes from it and is gonna give me a call after the next blizzard), Oregon's Black Butte, Oregon's Olallie Butte, all winter (snow), and then start going higher/more technical as we bleed into spring. right or wrong, that's another noob's take.

necropost, i know.. is hot forging really necessary? with a good modern spring steel, seems like a good gage sheet, an angle grinder, and a carbide 5/8ths drill would produce something comparable to whats sold in climbing shops. only difference would be that grinding causes heat, stamping (how i assume they make theirs) doesn't.

excellent tips, guys.. thanks

somebody correct me if i'm wrong, but i dont think you generally walk away from factor 2 falls.