Water

bump. Haven't been there but as you said...i submitted some comments. recommend others do the same. Email them to: Subject: Menagerie Seasonal Closure Boundary Change for Species Protection #38620 Amanda Colton 4431 Highway 20 , Sweet Home, OR, 97386 arcolton@fs.fed.us When it comes to peregrine protection, I like to let this statement from the US Dept. Fish and Wildlife Services stand for itself: "The peregrine falcon has the most extensive natural distribution of any bird in the world, limited only by high elevations, extreme heat, and extreme cold. It is found on all continents except Antarctica." -delisted from endangered species list and state level lists.

nice pictures (climbs and of fam/friends). what do you mean by career ending? retiring now that you've completed your desired climbs?

though the NW Forest Pass appears to be in its end-of-life...there have been a few significant court decisions against it in the last year. Things are being appealed but it does not look good. I have been testing them at a handful of THs and at least in OR and southern WA either I am getting very lucky or they are no longer enforcing while they maintain the signage. Anyways I've followed similar discussions on other outdoors sites, it seems from a high level the USFS desire is to concentrate recreation, especially into more accessible places, and to regulate/manage/permit/quota it. Oh, and 'harness' the power of the private market to deal with aspects of this, essentially hooking up the public teat into the private sector's wallet. But back to this at hand. Indeed whats done is done, and it is a two year program that seem somewhat fluffy in education, but hey if educational modalities alter behavior enough to mitigate whatever quantified impacts, then thats an easier path to walk. I think unfortunately the reality is the trend of permits/regulation has the inertia of a freight train behind it. As NoahT asked about other places that maybe had an issue, then got rangers then things improved, etc, does anyone know of a case of recreation where there was an issue (manufactured or real, or real but exaggerated a bit) where an educational campaign ameliorated the most pressing concerns and 'fixed' the problem to let it be sustainably-self managing? serious question. An actual avenue that all these outdoor clubs and associations could take with the USFS is to try to get reassurance that this won't lead to permits and quotas, or if they don't give such reassurance, try to get concrete benchmarks of what threshold of degradation or whatever has to occur that prompts that type of action. It would be great to get some type of formal assurance instead of entering interaction on good faith, being as one of the partners (USFS) has very little standing to trust. This is what I mean what you say can and will be used against you--those two employees on the ground might be fine people but the info they report, possibly freely given from these user groups/clubs, just provides justification for superiors to implement some fee structure or whatever other bullshit.

One other from their FB as I browsed more--they've got far more pictures of stuff than any text explaining their total job description: caption: "The climbers way of hanging food" That is an issue, as is the generalization. counterbalancing I'd like to see a fair bit more of this in high-use areas. So props to them for digging this, that ain't anyone's idea of a 'grand time'. but I personally wonder if a seasonal climbing ranger on a grant is needed to dig a pit toilet. Seems more fitting for an americorps crew of 17-19yr olds, just from a use of public monies, but hey a shitter is a shitter, amirite?

sorry i am not so grammatically pedantic as yourself Blake. both statements are bits of implied character assassination and are not germane to the discussion of the FS, which need not do anything but demonstrate its track record to display poor character. enjoy the new regulations and oversight as it comes. guess its good to be on the ground floor of it, if its coming one way or another. Again, is it thought this two year grant is to get things into some type of pattern/management and then be handed off to volunteers? Or is this a pilot for permanent seasonal roles? They've mentioned data collection and "the need for climbing specific programs". Is what is already listed the totality of their specific programs or what would those specific programs be?

First Sol suggests anyone voicing skepticism of climbing rangers and the FS needs to put up their work-party and bolt replacement resume now you suggest somehow one's username has any bearing on discussions on a climbing board. hah. If it matters, while Water may not be on my drivers license I have equally gone by this name among friends for years. That is great some of you have gone to bat for climbers. Sure lets hope for the best but don't forget anything you say can and will be used against you. Off the top of my head I can't think of an area that dropped the red-tape and permits and all that bullshit, but I can certainly think of more and more examples where red tape goes up. The past speaks for itself, what is more likely, this is a 2 year grant to try to get things in shipshape and help climbers keep routes clean then it gets passed off to volunteers? The writing is on the wall, they speak plenty of data collection and "The impacts caused by the increase in the climbing population have begun to get noticed and the need for climbing specific programs identified. The major impacts that have been noticed are de-vegetation, soil compaction, impacts to wildlife, safety concerns, and (over) use conflicts. " - You can bet this is a path to more regulation. I am sure those rangers are overall fine fellas doesn't mean they set much of an agenda long term if you look at FS management trends.

it is not this person's? (saw you sent them a PM). hows bout a TR even a mini one.. Jeff don't get enough love http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1111737/Re_Ice_Axe_Mt_Jefferson

apparently one's interactions, observation, and research about the FS leading to a negative outlook isn't exactly valid to share unless you've detailed how you've maintained X miles of trail and helped removed tat and replaced anchors. got it. I do not mean to directly bash "Adam", I am sure these two are good guys. But you can talk till you are blue in the face to to the lower level FS personnel. No matter how much I tell the district ranger or front desk person at the Detroit Ranger station for Willamette that I shouldn't have to pay $6 in addition to having a NWFP in order to climb Mt. Jeff's west rib by Pamelia lake, or North or Middle Sister by way of the Obsidian TH, that isn't going away. Some may see this as pure conflation of separate issues but I give that as an example of new restrictions on access as of 2013 in my own backyard. I can't help but see this climbing rangers program as getting their foot in the door on the way to more restriction and fees. There is a great GAO report on FS trails/bc maintenance from this summer. http://www.gao.gov/assets/660/655555.pdf "The Forest Service estimated the value of its trail maintenance backlog to be $314 million in fiscal year 2012, with an additional $210 million for annual maintenance, capital improvement, and operations." I just saw a figure separately the US Gov pays ~$500+ billion a year to private contractors. ~1/500th of that would take care of the FS's backlog 3 times over. Maybe I'm just sticking my head in the sand not wanting to face reality that there are a lot of people using an outdoor resource and that if nothing is done it will be broken beyond repair (plants or animals will go extinct, meadows and trees will never grow back, every square inch will be polluted with feces). But count me as a skeptic. And instead of just bashing here are some suggestions I personally stand by/do, obviously not a panacea to all the ills of the FS but doing what I see to help [i was never one for student government, I don't have the capacity to sit in lots of meetings and discussions, motions and bylaws, etc, but I'll add my two cents through comment periods]: -quit blowing money on shitters, picnic benches, and to-be-vandalized signs at THs in the middle of the woods -maybe scale back the ornate ranger offices (here in Oregon at least we got a bunch of gems.) -do trail maintenance when and where you can on your own, (clipping brush, moving logs, clearing waterbars), and/or volunteer with formal organizations to do more in-depth work -dig some pit toilets in some of the highest use areas, boom you've solved one of the biggest issues with increased numbers of people -introduce people to the outdoors and educate how not to leave a trace, be courteous of other users, use good judgment, etc. -don't go to popular areas/climbs on busy weekends if you like solitude, onus is on you to go when things aren't busy -donate to climbing and/or trails groups -be involved in climbing and/or trails groups -write to your congresscritters Good2go: No, that was made up by me and should have been clearer. It was just a theory, see above.

rad and goatboy you both offer good points. that said it is a bit naive to think that this is necessarily for the benefit of climbers. That doesn't mean that a steady and decent relation can't be built though. While those carrying out the job may have noble aims, it doesn't mean the position wasn't created to tighten the screws on climbers and give more oversight (revenue collection) to the group. "We have a significant number of people circumventing the lottery by doing long days" I only trust the buttfuckery of the forest service as far as I can throw them, they're bending over backwards to limit access as far as I've observed. Hell, over the course of a decade every single yearly summary PDF from each National Forest in OR and WA describing where your 'fees' have gone to has gone from quantifying the miles of trails maintained/bridges replaced to specifically calling out that 95% of your fees go to the 'amenities and services' people enjoy--with no mention of trails. They mention peregrine falcon protection.. (golden eagle too), not that i think human use should trump that animals or plants but goddamn the peregrine falcon "has the most extensive natural distribution of any bird in the world, limited only by high elevations, extreme heat, and extreme cold. It is found on all continents except Antarctica" - US Fish & Wildlife website. just wait till CBR and dragontail get closed to all climbing for months due to falcons. MOAR RANGERS PLS!

gems such as this: caption: "Knocking down illegal cairns on the approach to Colchuck Balanced Rock" My comment suggested there were rangers who perhaps were derelict in their duty in the National Forest of Vermont..by far more illegality by many orders of magnitude than 3 rocks stacked. ILLEGAL ROCKS!

awesome TR, enjoyed it a lot. Not sure the tree situation (maybe nowhere good basically) but I think the take away is to cache anything in a place where a ranger won't find it? Might make it tough to find it oneself though. Also to include a note explaining circumstances, "Left this cache here this morning, will be back in the evening, please don't steal from it unless you're in dire need, because if you do you'll befall a terrible tragedy in the forest". Situations like this absolutely do not engender an iota of respect for most FS rules -- precisely what you said -- let a horse shit in a lake and a river, charge me entry, limit my entry to lotteries, clearcut to the edge of the wilderness, but ride my ass about things that matter not..

Thats awesome! My wife (Bucket) and I (Water) do trail magic for PCT'ers one weekend each summer as we got indoctrinated to the thru-hiking community/cult while thru'ing on the AT a number of years ago. And while I'll sound like an 'I told you so' -- its just an observation, but for better and worse thru hikers of all trails (PCT/CDT/AT/PNWT/etc..) walk an interesting line of hubris and ability. Largely it is of ability, there is no question about that, but i've personally witnessed the confidence of that experience pushing into situations that are well beyond what is encountered hiking. That they've gone for months and thousands of miles through huge ranges of mountains, snowy passes/rain/storms/heat/scrambles/etc, wild conditions, trials and tribulations, they're definitely forged of a can-do/get-by/make-it-happen/seriously self-reliant cloth, but i've witnessed that hiking experience get applied to situations a far bit on the outside of hiking, most of the time without consequence but not always--and then it seems the viewpoint is like 'getting lost' and not having over-stepped one's knowledge and ability. For me i've always demarcated pretty clearly between my climbing ventures and my hiking/backpacking ventures with the wife and family so I guess it stands out to me. BUT please not let this detract from the TR/topic. It is my belief while thru-hiking all hikers are filling a karmic piggy-bank through their miles each day and suffering. When the shit hits the fan in one way or another the universe seems to totally provide, like you coming out and finding his pack in good shape. Or some friend-of-a-friend of a hiker we were with, whos wife and daughter were nurses at a hospital, in central pennsylavania coming to the rescue at 8am at a state camp ground with a dose of cipro for my wife when she clearly had a simply UTI and we had no health insurance. or the people who stop to ask if you're hikers and if you could use a place to stay when you've gotten rained on 5 days in a row. the stories are endless, and not just from us, but i swear the trails will provide, if you hike them.

Hello, Saw elsewhere that WA is altering their rules to remove reciprocity. No word on if Oregon and others will thusly drop it as well, but it sounds like Oregon passes won't be valid in WA. PDX'ers rejoice. Though I haven't seen anything officially geared towards the public stating as much, I did find this change from this summer below. http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/laws/wsr/2013/14/13-14-027.htm From what I can tell these are the WAC (Washington Administrative Code) changes/alterations from this summer. Changes came at behest of the Washington state parks and recreation commission it appears. It is WA executive branch decision. So it could very well be overturned or an exemption granted again right before sno-park season? The complexities of permits, dates (Oregon is Nov 1, WA appears to be Dec 1?), etc is becoming unreal and laughably unmanageable as far as it relates to the end user.

It is longer by a bit but id highly recommend the emmons-winthrop over the DC at this point.

awesome. great story, lovely & fun photography. What a treat, thanks for sharing.

http://mountrainierconditions.blogspot.com/2013/05/emmons-winthrop-2013.html

+1, and a lot of that rockfall is caused by other people who decided they needed to be roped-up there I guess I'll 3rd that.. the downclimb was not bad, there is good holds and ledges and such but the people with ropes and the ropes themselves seemed to cause the most issue.

my renters was pretty easy when i absentmindedly 'set' down my wedding band on a table at the gym while fussing with my locker key and ipod. i came back 2 minutes later and it was gone. expensive jewelry had been found and turned in at this gym in the past just fine--since it never showed up my agent said I could consider that a theft. without an extra rider the policy maxed at $500 on jewelry but hey it helped a lot on total cost of replacement! i'd definitely try to rake your agent over the coals on this. that is such a BS policy clause they are giving you.. like others said confirm it in writing. My agent has told me i am covered with our basic renters if my gear gets stolen from my car or if for instance a camera/gps/etc was stolen from a basecamp tent, etc.

Some LA sportiva nagos. 4yr old. Had them resoled once already maybe a year or two ago. But that was the sole going down to the rand. This looks like a spot in the rand wore through. Does a resole fix this or is this the beginning of the end for this shoe? Or can I just shoe glue the spot to keep it from growing? Not been too thrilled with the aggressiveness of this shoe lately. The rest of it is in good shape, what's the lifetime of a shoe? Can you resole for years and years?

thanks for report update. for clarification... ice tools needed... but bring pickets (generally not good pro for ice..) or is it very hard snow in the early AM, maybe soften a bit later?

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/vancouversun/obituary.aspx?n=peter-almerling&pid=166015637

oi http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?board=167.0

you can probably do south sis without stepping on snow. There was a report on portlandhikers a few days ago. someone went to the hogsback this past weekend reported could get there without touching snow for the most part/or almost--vast majority of the route. Adams when I skied it over a month ago kept my trail runners on till 10,500ft but on the snow in early morn. someone just posted a TR up the Adams glacier and said it was nice and should be good for a while. There is a decent 'climb' (if you're putting south sister in the mix) called The Brothers in the Olympics it would be a shorter drive than to south sis. if you want some more challenge go for north sister-south sister is a family hike if you're talking the dog route

guess you gotta take that anger somewhere, might as well be to the mountains, keep climbing. I don't need to or want to tell you anything about your choices, but had I replied directly to your story it would have been the same thing as I'll say now: i do hope you heal up quick/well. it is an interesting contrast, one report that was quite open, full names, willingness to contribute and hear back, to one that self-admits never contributing TRs (or beta?) to the site, that doesn't want to be named, and comes off as perhaps a bit self-absorbed (maybe I'm projecting there, no need to let it push your buttons like my statement that referenced you). But hey, theres no real rules for the TRs other than it being of something in the mountains, and I don't know you, online sells people short in the personality department and my read of TRs of all shapes and sizes is very well influenced by my own biases. we're done here deadman, you came for two things, and neither of them are to talk to me.

also sorry for thread drift just thought it was a really interesting juxtaposition and contrast between the two trip reports, couldn't be more different. Again like your TR and thanks for the slick GE overlay, thats a nice bit of icing to have every step recorded.