tvashtarkatena

Relevant Excerpt from the Wilderness Act of 1964: "to promote, perpetuate, and preserve the wilderness character of the lands, protect watersheds and wildlife habitat, preserve scenic and historic resources, and promote scientific research, primitive recreation, solitude, physical and mental challenge and inspiration for the benefit of all the American people to a greater extent than is possible in the absence of wilderness designation.” From the USFS website re: Green Mountain Lookout: "In this spirit of preserving historic structures, since 1984 the Mt. Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest has engaged in cooperative efforts to maintain its wilderness lookouts: Winchester Mountain, Park Butte, Three Fingers, Miners Ridge, Evergreen Mountain, Granite Mountain and Green Mountain. While each lookout has required considerable work to repair windows, roofs and foundations, the Green Mountain Lookout was in the most dire condition. The Forest Service began to rehabilitate the lookout in 1998 to rehabilitate the lookout. The project received wide public support, Washington State historic preservation concurrence, and grant funding. Work began in 1999. The first repair effort in 2000 failed due to inadequate design for snow loading. At risk of losing the structure, the lookout had to be disassembled and removed from the mountaintop. Each piece was numbered and then removed by helicopter for repairs in Darrington, Wash., so the pieces could be returned and re-assembled to re-create the previous lookout atop Green Mountain. In 2003 and 2006, major winter storms washed out roads and creek crossings, making access to the trailhead a 12-mile hiking venture on undriveable roads. Access finally improved enough that the lookout foundation could be repaired in 2009. The lookout pieces were then flown back by helicopter and re-assembled on the mountaintop. Today, some interior finishing work and other details remain to complete the lookout rehabilitation." The characterization of by Wilderness Watch of this being a 'secret project' is as complete a fabrication as it's assertion that this will become a staffed 'visitor center' (anyone who's familiar with the location of our lookouts will have a quiet chuckle over this). In short, Wilderness Watch has engaged in an out of state campaign involving lying and misreading of statute to tear town a historic structure, built in 1933, that is, in fact, still used by volunteers to spot fires (again, in direct contradiction of WW's assertions to the opposite), and about which its members know little to nothing about. Principled advocacy organizations do not engage in this sort of out and out fabrication. If you've given money to Wilderness Watch in the past, you might look for another organization that will be a better steward of both the truth and your hard earned money.

The ACLU sued the NSA over its wireless watertapping a while ago - it was thrown out due to lack of 'standing' (the defendents couldn't prove they'd been wiretapped because the program's is secret). Now we're back in business. We'll see. Going up against 'national security' is often a tough fight.

You'll probably continue in that failure, j-b Yup, Bill, the ole "National Security - nothing to see here' defense. National Security and the Rule of Law need not be at odds, but they certainly are in the good old USA. It's become a handy excuse for 'I'll do whatever I want'.

WW's attorney is Pete Frost out of...Eugene, OR! (of course). Feel free to contact him: http://www.westernlaw.org/contact-us

Here's the Wilderness Watch take on the situ, from their website. They are fighting a number of fire lookout maintenance projects: they are clearly against all structures in Wilderness Areas, regardless of their history. Apparently, they're working from their own definition of the Wilderness Act, not the actual law and its large body of precedence. "Building New History in Wilderness (Washington): UPDATED 11/10 [Posted 7/10] Wilderness Watch recently alerted its members to the U.S. Forest Service’s (FS) newly constructed Green Mountain “Lookout” in the Glacier Peak Wilderness in Washington’s North Cascades (and also mentioned a number of other outlaw projects we’re dealing with). It was built with freight helicopters and power tools along with a healthy dose of arrogance. It’s actually not intended to serve as a lookout: the last time a person manned a lookout in the area was the early 1970s. No, this was built to be a visitor center of sorts, complete with its resident ranger leading nature hikes, (???) and directly contrary to the legal mandate that there be no structures or installations in Wilderness. The agency would have gotten away with this egregious breach of wilderness ethics and law had not a Wilderness Watch member and former wilderness ranger discovered the project on his own. You see, FS officials plotted it in private, avoiding public process or participation, thinking they might sneak their unlawful activities under the radar. (Actually, local volunteers conceived of, obtained a grant for, and executed the project PMG) What is it about the law’s mandate that there be “no structure or installation” built in Wilderness that the Forest Service doesn’t understand? • Click here to read the rest on our blog [uPDATE, 11/10]: Wilderness Watch has filed a Complaint in federal district court in Washington State. In our complaint we asked the court to rule this structure illegal and order the Forest Service to remove it. We'll keep you posted. WW is represented by Pete Frost of Western Environmental Law Center. Back to top

From the Wiki: "The Wilderness Act allows certain uses (e.g.; resource extraction, grazing, etc) which existed before the land became wilderness to be grandfathered in, permitting them to continue to take place although the area that was designated as wilderness typically would not concede such uses. Specifically, mining, grazing, water uses, or any other uses that don’t significantly impact the majority of the area, can remain in some degree." Ie, there is quite a bit of discretion as to how a given Wildnerness area is managed, and locals, given that they are the primary users, historically have had a lot more say in the matter than non-users such as yourself. Gorge TR? Not aware of it, nor is is relevant here.

Well, we've heard your opinion from several hundred miles south of our border, complete with unrelated toilette paper rant, etc. I'd like to here more local opinions from people who've actually visited Washington's historic lookouts. Wilderness areas allow all kinds of things: horses, cabins,cattle and sheep grazing, hunting...based on historical use. That's why Wilderness Area regulations vary, A LOT, area by area...as they should. It's not the FS 'bending the rules', its an appropriate clause in the Wilderness Act that respects local history and use as well as the environment.

You're in Oregon. Not your local mountains, not where you frequent, not your problem. I'm also not interested in hearing about how you deal with your toilette paper, and I doubt anyone else is, either. It's really not at issue here, last time I checked. Plus...you've grossly mischaracterized the legality of the situ and are apparently not aware of what the Wilderness Act, and its provision for historic value, actually is. You're also apparently unaware that Washington's fire lookouts are maintained by volunteers, not state money. Volunteers may apply for grants, but those are certainly not guaranteed funding. BTW, many thanks to those volunteers who do such a great job of maintaining our historic and spectacular lookouts and cabins...the few that are left. How do the rest of you Washingtonians feel about our lookouts? Love em? Hate em?

Aluminum + any other metal = rapid corrosion. Critical pot diameter to flame diameter ratio for maximum cooking efficiency is 2:1 minimum. Efficiency drops off rapidly when with that ratio. Jetboil pots are invariably tall and skinny, however - the worst shape for efficiency. What gives?

"legislation?" That's just wordy shit. You know: fetish.

Can't you Montanans be content with yer bottle o Jack and a friendly sheep? http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20110115/NEWS01/701159925 Feel free to contact Wilderness Watch and tell them how you feel. I did. http://www.wildernesswatch.org/about/contact.html

If respect and support for the 1st Amendment is fetish, then I guess I'm a Super Freak.

I get your sarcasm but it is a joke to think that actual regulation is taking place. Well, Bone, I suppose you'd have to be somewhat knowledgeable about what these agencies have and have not done, in some detail, to make that call. You're not.

I do think the best way to free ourselves from the grip of existing oligarchy/oorporatocracy is to abolish the very agencies that regulate them. It's a no brainer.

Sound logic, Bone. I'm going to step in front of a speeding train this morning. Just need some radical change, you know?

My TAAAAKKKKEEEE!!!! on 2011: Jebus, all you do is create work for others...

Sweet little tantrum but a little shy on actual rebuttals. It's pretty clear you've never bothered to read the CU decision, nor do you know much about SCOTUS and the varied and conflicting philosophies of its justices. End of conversation.

That is my magic, Bone.

Bone...when you gonna get a BIG ASS PERM?

you never know how culture will osmose... Ooooo, its the Thai Love Links ad! Gotta go....

What you boyz do up thar stays up thar.

You know what I'm talkin' about...

When I run for office, I won't know who Tvashtarkatena is.

And conspiracy theorists. Hence, the Kevworship phenomenon.

We had a great trip on snowshoes. Hell, we didn't even need em for half the trip. The forest up was practically bare.