rob

Hmm, Kevbone, I gotta say... I think your original argument is pretty poor. People who support the war think they're saving lives. From talking to them, they seem to honestly believe they are protecting America by sacrificing our soldiers. I disagree, but I believe they're sincere. Your argument insinuates that they are maliciously sending troops to be slaughtered, which isn't fair. Unless you are saying it's ALWAYS wrong to send soldiers to war. Troll?

Is it joining the special forces?

I think that employers have a responsibility to ensure that the workspace they offer their employees is not drenched in toxic fumes, and if it is, they have a responsibilty to offer protective measures. Workers in factories who are exposed to toxins are provided masks, protective clothing, etc. Or, would you tell them "Hey, you CHOSE to work in a toxic environment, you're on your own, buddy" and absolve the manufacterer of any responsibility? Smoking at home is a touchier issue, obviously. Comparing the two seems somewhat of a specious argument, but I'll bite. I saw a woman driving on the freeway, smoking, with her windows up, and a small child in the back seat. Should that be illegal? But, where do you draw the line? Is it illegal to provide McDonald's food to children? That is also unhealthy. That's a harder issue, but legislation providing a safe workplace has a long historical precident, and I see the smoking-ban as part of that, not part of an argument about civil liberty. Employers don't have the "right" to provide toxic environments.

Yeah, I know, but are you telling me those other people have no choice but to stand by and inhale secondhand smoke? Not hardly. The power of the consumer should be the measure a business uses to determine their policy on smoking. If nobody wants to be around it, they will ban it to stay in business. And if the impact of every activity on insurance premiums were a good measure of what the government should tell us we can & can't do, then a lot of dangerous activities like climbing ought to be regulated & legislated to minimize its impact, and recoup by taxation the cost to our society. Maybe we should just have a study to determine the most benign form of exercise and legislate that everyone must participate at the perfect level to reduce our premiums and make sure everyone's making the right choices in their life. The smoking issue is certainly worth at least some argument and thought to figure out what's the approach most consistent with freedom, and a blanket referendum to ban it indoors was not the best choice. Bullshit……IMO….I have the right to breath clean air in a public place more than you have the right to pollute it. And employees have the right to make a buck without being poisoned. It's illegal to pour arsenic into the river, and it's illegal to pour tobacco smoke into a restaurant. It has nothing to do with the "power of the consumer." P.S. I haven't been paying attention. How did this conversation turn into a smoking thread?

Thanks for the site, guys. This website has had a huge positive impact on my climbing. I appreciate it.

I disagree completely, Arch. I think somebody who voluntarily takes a job in which he risks his life and limb to save others, for generally low pay, deserves a little special treatment. As do their families. I don't think I would place teachers in this category, btw. Sorry Ivan!

Man, I haven't gotten so much work done in a long time. CC should go down more often...

My 7-yo son says Metallica's Seek and Destroy is the best fight music ever.

Pixies, bone machine

Yeah, but did you make enough to score a bag?

it cracks me up how many people pretend to be ignoring Tvash.

Nice, in one sentence you insult "most of us" and in the next paragraph you mention there are actually less than 8.

that descent is a drag Campfire? Where did you have a campfire?

Dan, it was good to see you tonight. I'm glad that you are finally up and on your feet. I think I owe you quite a bit of rope-gunning. When you're ready, give me a holler.

thanks for the encouragement, guys/gals Looking forward to rope up

haha, he looks confused, too. "WTF? Where am I?"

Source?

I can't even imagine.

It breaks my heart, and I don't even know the family. To call the deceased "inconsiderate and thoughtless in the extreme" and to say he's "lucky he died" is absolutely inexcusable.

way to go porter, now you're on their list.

Marines? Aren't they, like, part of the Navy or something?

OMG!

that Quorn stuff is no good. The gardenburger and morningstar farms stuff is way better.

I could use an extra. Is that the dirtiest knife you could find? Did you sharpen it out in the woodshed first? Fucking awesome

I told him to eat a bag of cocks but they deleted my post