StevenSeagal

And what of Satan? Another of God's creations that went haywire? Made before he even made humans? Seagal have any kids??? I bet you want them to be the best they can be if you do. Do they always do what you want?? You created them didn't you??? Why can't you control them??? If you give something free will sometimes they don't do what you want. I don't have kids, but that is irrelevant. If I create something and give them free will, why would I then expect them to immediately surrender that free will and do "what I want them to do"? That sounds like ownership. I'm around nieces/nephews enough that I understand that you have to provide guidance and at times, control. But most of all you need to inspire kids to think proactively and to find out the answers through constant inquisitiveness, not through authoritarian dictatorship. authoritarian dictatorship that not God. He lets you choose freely. He just tells you there are repercutions. Just like if a kid decided to start shop lifting and gets caught. Stealing a candy bar at the store: Visible repercussion Burning in hell because you don't devote your entire being to a relationship with a God no one has ever seen and no one has spoken with and we know nothing about except what was written in a text written by superstitious men 2000 years ago= Not visible repercussion. Not even TANGIBLE. The only ones who've told us we have repercussions are other humans. Unless you honestly believe that God spoke to them and that their word is the word of God.

Well like I said, go play outside then. Most children don't understand what the grown ups are talking about and so that's what little children do, they go play outside---

Under this scenario, it sounds like God created man for his own self-aggrandizement, and now rejects him for utilizing a tool he himself gave man. What did he expect? My impression, going back to humans, is that this is an invention of humans who wanted to control the behavior of other humans- this "free will" that God apparently gave us- and we certainly do have free will- is demonized by religion as separating us from God.

And what of Satan? Another of God's creations that went haywire? Made before he even made humans? Seagal have any kids??? I bet you want them to be the best they can be if you do. Do they always do what you want?? You created them didn't you??? Why can't you control them??? If you give something free will sometimes they don't do what you want. I don't have kids, but that is irrelevant. If I create something and give them free will, why would I then expect them to immediately surrender that free will and do "what I want them to do"? That sounds like ownership. I'm around nieces/nephews enough that I understand that you have to provide guidance and at times, control. But most of all you need to inspire kids to think proactively and to find out the answers through constant inquisitiveness, not through authoritarian dictatorship.

This leads to another contradiction: If God gave man "free will", why require faith in an unseen, unknowable, creator for the demarcation between eternal life and eternal damnation? That sounds like a game created by a sick, manipulative person if I may sound so offensively blunt. At the least, it doesn't sound like the work of a benevolant, loving God who loves his creation. In reality, it sounds like the creation of manipulative-minded humans who wanted to control the thoughts and beliefs and lives of others, and it was written down 2000 years ago and became a factual paradigm through thousands of years of superstition. And what of Satan? Another of God's creations that went haywire? Made before he even made humans? Archenemy: That's a thought provoking question alright! How do I know this world isn't 'perfect' in some context? Perhaps, it IS perfect by someone's definition. In some ways, I would agree that the symbiosis of all life forms and the everyday ongoings of the natural world are indeed perfect- there's been many times in life- both in human situations, like just walking through a crowded market and watching what people are doing- or walking up a mountain and seeing bugs and spider webs and pollen and seedlings flying through the air and water cascading down and the clouds boiling overhead- how could it get any more perfect? So the question is one of relativity again. Maybe saying man isn't perfect is itself a fragmented viewpoint. I will have think on that one. kevbone: Just because "this is SPRAY!!!" doesn't mean every single thread has to immediately degenerate into the internet equivalent of a bunch of 13 year olds sitting around cutting farts and giggling. Even pink chimed in with some brain cells. Now go play outside with the other kids, dinner will be ready at 5. A knuckle sandwich!!!

Okay well here's a serious question: what we have been told about God: He is perfect, infallible, etc...seems to me to contradict his creation of 'himself in his own image'- man is obviously not perfect, and his own creation is killing one another endlessly, oftentimes in His name. So how can a "perfect" creator create such an imperfect being? The answer I always get when asking this of believers is something like "we can't suppose to know the intentions of our creator" which to me is purely evasive an indicative that the respondant either doesn't know, or has never wanted to know.

Maybe that's the problem. Evidently, many aren't very comfortable. And I would guess that certain zealots subconsciously figure that by converting everyone to their belief system and eliminating conflicting outside opinions, it will help ease their own insecurities about their belief system. The problem I have is the way organized religions use fear as a tool to embrace the belief- "better you believe than take your chances and not believe, cause if you're wrong, you'll spend eternity in hell". How many people in an unstable and insecure life situation could say no to that? "What if you're wrong??" Embracing the belief system may indeed help them stabilize their life, but that which is entered (psychologically speaking) into because of fear, in my opinion, cannot be a whole action- it's fragmented. So when people say they have faith in God, how serious are they? Are they having faith really for God, or are they having faith out of fear of going to hell, or for the enticement of heavenly rewards? In the latter cases their 'faith' is entirely based in self-interest, so is that really about God or themselves? You've come full circle again. For many, it's about one's self and not about "God".

Do you and Dru just sit around all day gunning for the pagetop snaffle thing? You two are on it 24/7.

hey kevbone, Why don't you go play upstairs while the adults talk?

Tell that to my brother's in-laws. At the Thanksgiving table, I could feel the mother's eyes burning a hole in me everytime I reached for the wine. Alcohol is the absolute work of the devil himself. In her eyes, I might as well have stood up and yelled, "FUCK YOU GOD!"

Probably the best point made in this thread so far.

This is a problem that has particular relevance here in western culture- we assert our beliefs onto others rather than enquiring into the beliefs of others. There's no curiosity about the other, only a desire to talk about one's self, and then promote it. By far the most stimulating "religious" conversations I've had were in Asia- total strangers will approach and want to know all about you- what do you believe, how do you view this, that, etc. But in my experiences it was never an inquisition or condescending, it was genuine interest, and not with a follow up attempt to persuade you to change your views. They would explain their views, of course, but it was a simple exchange; in the course of the relationship there was a mutual respect that allowed each person's views to hold equal validity and importance in the conversation, everything was considered and everything was discussed. In the end, both people would learn and take something useful away in the absence of engaging one another's egos and creating the defensive response we've been talking about here. Great stuff.

Holy Shit, Seachicken- see most post above if you want my view on that subject. You're proving my point with this wild assumption- that expressing a non-belief in God or at least, God's that man have in my opinion, invented, causes a hysterical response by believers- in this case- "THAT ATHEIST OVER THERE WANTS TO TAKE AWAY YOUR RELIGION AND KILL YOU!". Before long, the battle cry becomes "KILL THAT GODLESS CRETIN BEFORE HE POISONS YOUR MIND AND KILLS YOU!" Give a knee jerk response, you can expect one back.

What do you mean by "religious"? Do I have friends who carry personal beliefs about their origin and have spirituality? Everyone I know, myself included, have that. Do I have friends who go to church and center their life around organized religion? Not really, and it's no accident why. There's a tangible barrier; you can feel the judgment seething out of them even if they never verbalize it. Every conversation drops out some little jab about "getting your life in order" or somesuch as if I projected any sort of discord and was seeking their advice. And you know what Underworld? I'm happy for them. I respect the fact that religion gives them structure and comfort, and they can have it. I wouldn't pretend to suggest that government, media, or the social structure in general attempt to stifle people's religious beliefs. But if Christians, Muslims, or whoever, is going to bring up the issue with me, uninvited, then I'm free to tell them what I think of their system all the same and suggest that they alter the way they view others. And that's only a suggestion. You can take it or leave it. Most of them won't listen long enough to consider it, let alone take it, or leave it.

If "what they believe is right" involves using media, schools, and government to influence what people are taught and what information they get to be biased towards their particular religious persuasion, then they are doing plenty of harm. Anyone who's religion tells them they need to convert people and "save" them- whether it's by knocking on doors and offering literature, or killing non-believers to please God, really ought to question the substance and validity of the system. "What you believe is right" holds a lot of room for justification and is a great tool for the human ego to run amok.

Minx, just remember, there's only one thing Islamic and Christian fundamentalists hate more than people who believe in other gods, and that's people who don't believe in any god at all. Just expressing your opinion is considered a full frontal assault to their belief system- you're dangerous to them. "Doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you believe in something."

Those aren't on the "gay bands" list are they? Because I don't listen to gay bands.

And all this time I just thought you were born that way...

Yeah, first it'll be: Just make sure it don't end up:

Hmmm "Seahawks"....looks like you and I have something in common. what we both think Kevbone is a prick! LOL

Hmmm "Seahawks"....looks like you and I have something in common.

Actually it was a joke. Read what Kevboner wrote immediately preceding my response. I'll speak english only once everyone else around me does. You come into this country You can't get real jobs Boats and boats and boats of you Go home you fuckin' slobs Selling hot dogs on the corner Selling papers in the street Pushing, pulling, digging, sweating Where you come from must be beat [CHORUS] You always make us wait You're the ones we hate You can't communicate Speak English Or Die You don't know what I want You don't know what I need Why must I repeat myself Can't you fuckin' read? Nice fuckin' accents Why can't you speak like me What's that dot on you head, Do you use it to see?? [CHORUS-MOSH PART-CHORUS]

You are not the RedNose? What have you done with RedNose? Did he fall overboard in the Bering Sea? Well, it's a hard job being Out for Justice. I'm glad you're on the right team. Al qaida thinks they are Above the Law. They're Marked for Death.

Although come to think of it...it works both ways. And it's produced a great meeting of the minds here for all to enjoy: kevbone/Seahawks battle cage.