JosephH

And they (and their families) all had to come up with the requisite dedication as well as organize their priorities in life in order to maintain that level of climbing. It's not like it just happens - at any age - particularly not past 35 with those families, careers, and lives. People do it, but don't kid yourself, the five year attrition rate in climbing is still enormous across decades and such older climbers really are the last men standing at those grades. Yeah, it's like bitching about bullets and Buffalo hunting like it's still 1824...

Much of what follows this intro paragraph seem reasonable enough (minus the numinosity part). I would, however, suggest that areas in human brain 'respond' to all feelings and that there is no discrete or unique "religious" or "god" feeling. But your mention of both the roots of consciousness and numinosity in general bring up the essential point of how we humans respond to the unknown and unknowable. Again, I would say that the predominant reaction is fear, uncertainty, and doubt. If anything, we as a species abhor the vacuum unanswered questions represent and cannot tolerate this state of void. They gnaw at us without end and, eventually, they must be filled; if not by fact, then by the fruits of one of our most powerful capabilities - our imagination. When you speak of numinosty and mysteriousness being lost in the deconstruction of religion, what I hear is mourning and grief over the deconstruction of often beautiful imaginary constructs - many admittedly inspired works of genius or that exhibit an evolved complexity from generations of story evolution. I would say these coping constructs acquire an aesthetic and life of their own over time and many of them we call religions. Don't you find it striking that we now consider Egyption, Roman and Greek religions, which ruled the life of empires for thousands of years, to be mere 'mythologies' yet somehow vast tracts of our population consider christian mythology to be literal truths? It would seem to fail even the most rudimentary test of common sense. What makes Christians' belief in their mythology any different from, special, or more valid than that of the Egyptians? What about Mayan and Inca societies? They didn't sacrifice just one of their own, the sacrificed their own on a regular basis - pretty strong indicator of a deeply held and committed belief in literal truths. How are Christian beliefs today any different from a validity and mythology perspective?

I have no doubt that climbing hard is just a matter of focus and lifestyle adjustment - climbing consistently above 5.11 requires some prioritization and commitment at any age - it just becomes more important once you're old.

I wouldn't worry, he is never without his tinfoil hat.

PALIN 2012!!! Go Sarah!!!

KK YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO COMMENT ON THIS BOARD UNLESS YOU ARE A DRUG ADDLED ATHEIST WHO CAN CLIMB AT LEAST 5.13. CAN YOU CLIMB 5.13* LIKE JOSEPH? WELL? (*Waivers may be granted for like-minded tools who believe firmly in the omnipotent power of government and are willing to to supplant genuine charity work with contributions to the WCC.) More tragically flawed logic and poor reading comprehension. What I said is KKK is clearly not qualified to comment* about LSD or LSD and climbing. Again, under normal circumstances I would otherwise say that, like skydiving, everyone should try it once. But in KKKs case, I don't suspect either would be a wise idea. Amazing how sad the logic of the unaddled can be at times. And equally amazing that Ayn Rand, the darling of the rational right (admittedly a small and somewhat oxymoronic minority, given their spending habits), was an atheist. Could it be that she was into true independence and that wholly ruled out gods?

I agree with that. But I also think that recent conservatives have deliberately employed economic bubbling as cover for and as a distraction from their adventurism. From my perspective a good deal of the bill we're paying now is for Reagan outspending the Russians; funny how conservatives thought that bill would only come due for the Russians. In reality that little contest weakened both the U.S. and Russia and played no small part in China's recent ascendency.

That's what happens when you get an entire population self-inducing hallucenations about their god-given right to infinite prosperity.

Not at all. The conversation here was gods, not LSD. That again and again that's the only comeback you seem capable of mustering just points out how weak your arguments are in general. You seem to have some fundamental problem with people having taken hallucigens or climbing on them, but again, without even the slightest notion of what you're talking about. When you've done some 5.13 climbing with (or even without ) it I'd be more inclined to consider your opinions as anything but fearful hobgoblin fluff.

Quite a fixation on LSD for a guy that doesn't know the first thing about it.

Well, as someone who's taught at a couple of universities I can tell you there's no shortage of driveling profs in them - sounds like you got one of them.

I'd say that right there is one of your genuwhinely demonstrable moronisms. It's not my theory. Read up. Did I hit a nerve or something? It's sad watching people like you grow old... I'm not particularly concerned who the moron is, just that moronic drivel like this continues to circulate among the uneducated like a bad meme.

I'd say that right there is one of your genuwhinely demonstrable moronisms.

He's doing the Flying Dutchman rap - the best way off Grassy Ledges.

What they sought was to end the inter-colony religious competition and the intra-colony religious persecutions which were all to common between the various colonial religions. And it is completely self-delusional to think that people who are religious have any more capacity for feelings of any sort than atheists. It's exactly this sort of thinking that at its root is the 'them vs. us' I was speaking of upthread and just the sort of thinking Justice Brandeis was warning about. You are certainly free to be religious, I just happen to find it sad to see so many lives rooted in fear. And bug, please do in kind feel free to trot out any argument at all for god(s) that somehow leaves Tooth Fairies out of the mix.

Exactly. Science [fiction] and [circular] logic, sure.

Both really, but close enough.

The climbing in the rest of the Gorge along with the crags out of HR and White Salmon have little in common with climbing at Beacon given most of it is sport.

That you think there is any science or logic which supports the existence of god(s) is just the delusion I was speaking of.

I personally don't consider Beacon to be part of the general 'Gorge' choss climbing scene any more than I consider it part of Washington. Beacon is not the 'Gorge'.

That's what we use blanket assessments for - to bundle like assessments together. Take commentary on 'fairy tales' for instance, we group them as a class based on common attributes for the sake of said commentary. That we then fail to weave wider so that religious constructs fit under that same blanket is admittedly a shortcoming, but then I personally just happen to find all claims of there being more proof for god(s) than Tooth Fairies pretty damn delusional and fear-driven.

Empty is as empty does. And better empty than filled with childish fairy tales.

So you guys are saying AT&T now works fine in Bend as well?

I'm definitely of the mind that the negatives of religion far outweigh the positives in this day and age. I also don't subscribe to any of the weak attempts at religion-driven sociobiology - i.e. God Gene / Instinct / etc. Humans since prehistory have recognized the survival advantages of tribal cohesion, the issue is how you continuously reinforce that cohesion and manage the resulting tribe. I would posit that the natural foundation for cohesion and tribal 'governance' has been and remains, fear. Fear is a universal human emotion that leaders can always count on in the absence of almost all others. Fear of the unknown drives cohesion, and when enough humans are involved to threaten leadership, then fear of each other (them vs. us) is invoked to separate and maintain power bases. Once you have multiple tribes then the notion of identity becomes critical to maintaining tribal distinctions and powerbases. What collective identity requires, though, is a rallying construct - something that can't be easily invalidated. And what better candidate than pretty much any random construct which can't be directly experienced or disproven by members of the tribe or another tribe? Declaring our tribe believes "there is a Lion God in the Sun who protects us" or "Spirit in the Oak which is evil" are as good as gold for that purpose. Hell, if the strongest or smartest or most popular among us says it's so, who's going to argue the point? Say it often enough and get enough people saying it and, presto - no one dares deny it going forward. That's the real utility of religion from my perspective. And morality? Yeah, you can get all altruistic about it, but you can also look at morality from a tribal leadership perspective - the more unruly the mob, the more difficult they are to manage and lead. A New York Times reporter once badgered the President of Kazakhstan about his orders revoking the right of public assembly. "What about the people's rights?!?". The President responded, "look, you don't understand. You get 4,000 Kazakhs together you aren't going to have an 'assembly', you're going to have a riot!" The point being 'morality' is less a spiritual imperative than an organizational one. Religion served a purpose when we were primitive and uneducated societies, that we still need such constructs, and that they still enjoy the influence they do, tells you we aren't nearly as smart as we think we are. Again, there's no more validity for god than the Tooth Fairy. And, sorry, I find it an amazingly primitive and uneducated a response to living in today's world, and one that strongly shares a responsibility for war.

I wish Tyler! I'm the same age Jim was - 57 this year. Wish I was half the climber he was and half our age.