JosephH

My apologies, I misread you're post...

If you are venturing into the closed area you are putting other areas at risk - nothing happening with raptor closures in WA happens in isolation from all the other areas and crags.

Actually, he seemed pretty alright with it when I saw him early last year. He's still active as hell with all his various efforts on behalf of climbers and he seemed to have come to terms with his illness and the limitations it imposes on him. After even a few minutes talking with him you get the impression he's fairly happy in general to have simply survived the hundreds of times and ways he should have been dead along the way. It's almost as if you can hear the old SNL character Roseanne Roseannadanna saying "Well, Jane, it just goes to show you, it's always something." He clearly takes it all in stride and a day at a time like all the rest of us, except maybe he does it with far better humor than most of us would or do.

Bill, The Mt. Hood Wilderness bill is part of a long range program, in combination with Wild and Scenic Rivers Act additions, to extend as much protection to the overall Mt. Hood watershed as possible. If you look at the map you'll see the Wilderness additions are strategically covering critical rivers and streams, in attempt to establish riparian buffer strips and zones - all are critical watershed elements. The "old growth" components are strictly to preserve real old growth stands and in other cases re-establish habitat - via selective thinning of older stands (120+ year old) to give them the best shot possible of serving as components of an effective habitat across the majority of Mt. Hood. As it stands now, Mt. Hood's watershed is as much a dismal patchwork quilt as the vast majority of Oregon's forests. Again, it's a matter of looking at the bigger picture and the long haul for what is best for the overall habit, rivers, and streams. Contiguous works, patchwork doesn't. Give the bill its due, they are attempting to secure and protect the whold of Mt. Hood's watershed. They could do a better job explaining it than they do. I work with Clean Water Services which manages a similar effort attempting to restore the Tualatin River watershed which is fully embroilled in rural farming, industrial and commercial development, and suburban sprawl - but these folks have done a remarkable job working with the cards they've been dealt. Nothing is pure anymore, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to restore, protect, and manage resources to the best of our ability. [ Edited for an updated map, thanks Winter... ]

Only the top portion of the south side (along with most of the north) is encompassed within the current wilderness area. The Palmer snowfield/lift is not. Are you saying that the 25 climber-per-day Mount Hood limit proposal was a good idea? Or are you just angry because there are actually people who disagree with you? No, I'm saying you folks are using the same logic someone disabled could use within the context of the ADA to demand the Palmer Lift be extended to the top of the mountain. Your requirement and demand for road creation and repair within wilderness areas is not a shred different.

Again, it isn't about human [ab]use - if you can't reach part of a 'wilderness' without a road or a motor you don't have what it takes to be in that part of the wilderness. Maybe if you drop the Judeo-Christian 'god-put-it-all-here-for-me-to-use' claptrap you'd be able to see from a less painfully self-absorbed perspective. Hell, you might as well whine that the Palmer lift doesn't go to the top of Mt. Hood while you're at it - how dare they stand by a doctrine of social standard" when determining who and how many are allowed to stand on top of "their" mountain. And of course by your logic a via ferrata up the Nose - the nerve - how dare they attempt to keep it ferrataless. Clearly you're all big ADA supporters.

I've got plenty - I'll pm you. No need to pay anything.

Old growth isn't 'rotated' it's destroyed and can never be replaced. Ever look down during a flight over Oregon when headed out of state? That's not the world's largest par 4 out there, that's a hundred years of disasterous and unbridled policy based solely to enhance resource extraction. They would have been far better off stripping 3/4's of the state bare and leaving 1/4 roadless and uncut. Pure 'Wilderness' by definition is a roadless area - the idea that roads need to be repaired or created for access is bullshit. It's just cover to set and maintain precedents for commercial access to wilderness areas. Bill's point about a percentage being second and third growth is correct, but that doesn't make it a 'faux' wilderness - none of them at this point are pure and we have to protect what we can before they're further degraded. Bush just declared a broad swath of the pacific a sanctuary despite the fact that this vast chain of islands and atolls is essentially a large garbage rake. At what point do you folks get that it isn't all about you and your particular playtimes or commercial endeavors - that it's simply about preserving some shred of what precious little remains of our wilderness habitats as they are, and not on terms dictated by human [ab]use.

Oh, I do know the history, which makes the accomplishments of the four horsemen in the 90's all the more stunning and unprecedented.

From http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=403649 --------------------------------------------------------- I am forwarding portions of a message I received today about Mead Hargis. Many of you probably remember him. The author of the below note is George Durkee. If you would like contact info for Mead and his wife Connie, please send me a private email. Anne-Marie ____________ Campers: Some of you may have heard that Mead Hargis' health has not been good. I'm writing to update those of you I've got addresses for on how he's doing. Please pass this on to others I may have missed. A few years ago, Mead was having memory problems and was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. For a couple of years, he was doing really well, though he had to retire from his Forest Service job. He was still active and involved with his kids and (now) grandkids. At the very early stages he and I took a couple of ski trips and there were few signs of memory problems. Last spring he and his wife, Connie, took a trip down the east side of the Sierra and through Yosemite so he could show her his former hangouts. It was a good trip for both of them. Late last fall, Mead showed a marked and rapid decline in both his mental and physical abilities such that it was impossible for him to be home alone. Connie found a really nice care home in nearby Kamas, Utah. It has great views of the valley and mountains and a caring staff. Unfortunately, he was only there a few months before his continued decline forced another move to a home that could take better medical care of him. He's now in Salt Lake and under Hospice care. Although there's little obvious recognition of friends or even, sometimes, family at this point, there's indications that, internally, he's reliving some of his past. Tina (aka Christina Vojta), Heather and Laurel (aka George) have all been to visit several times in the last few months. The whole thing is pretty grim but there's some comfort that he's in relative peace. Connie sees him every day and there's photos of his Yosemite days and family in his room. So. So.... . I was thinking that, if some of you have time, a short note to Connie with a shared memory of past times she could read to Mead would be a welcome. Connie didn't know Mead in his Yosemite days, so a few stories from then would be nice to fill in a past as well as maybe perk some memories for Mead, distant though he may be from the rest of us. I'm sure the same would be appreciated by his daughters, Heather and Laurel, telling them what a fine person their father is and maybe a story about the grand old Yosemite days, which they were too young to remember.

Clearly then at least some of you guys were too young to even be cognizant of the the work of the Reagan younglings once they graduated or how the country came to be the way it is today. The sixties and the Vietnam war merely gave a voice to the reality that not everyone in the country agreed with the unbridled and overwhelmingly predominant white, male, christian, coporate, monied interests which were running the country through the 50's and early 60's. However, near the end of the Vietnam war, 60% of the population thought it was a mistake and given that made it two losses in a row it set up a conversation dynamic which was not based solely on the infallibility of the aforementioned power elite, but one that demanded a less autocratic form of government. The conversations you heard in the seventies as a child was one of people expressing "we won't be fooled again" (despite the fact they just have been). No, the divisions you see today are not at all natural extension of those times, but rather engineered ones set in motion by men whose youth was spent in Reagan's employ and who went to great lengths to not only recapture their youth, but also to rekindle the drive of they saw as uncompleted by Reagan and especially Bush Sr. to reestablish the US as the dominant and preeminant superpower answering to, and beholden to no other nation. These folks were and are the core of the neocon cadre. They knew that could only happen with expanded Executive power, removing the US from all treaties, and finding a venue to display US military might. The result of this pursuit of the lost youth of a handful white males? Disaster. After a brilliant fifteen year drive to power in which they hijacked the GOP, harnessed and exploited religion and race, rewrote the politics of the South, and secured all three branches of government - what happened? The blew it big. And they blew it almost precisely like many alpine climbers do - on the descent. After this enormous climb to the summit of power the neocons thought the rest was a cakewalk - go it alone, push over a dominos, hey - everything will be a stroll from here on out. Well, the results have been predictably savage and for all practical purposes has left the descent littered with neocon and republican bodies with few able to claim they will be making back to their cars unscathed. Again, what you see was carefully and deliberatly designed, engineered, and executed by a handful of very smart republican's. That's how they got all three branches of government - it wasn't an accident or happenstance. For god's sake, learn a little bit about the pride of you own party - the four horsemen delivered the goods - it's the team leaders that screwed the pooch by believing the neocon fantasy was a self-fulfilling prophocey that required little or no cogent management or follow-through on their part.

Let's see - yep, completely crazy, and of course that would mean that according to you sane far-right republicans that none of the follow has really happened and that these traditions, rights, and institutions of our nation have not been systematically or inadvertantly demolished by the Bush administration: Separation of Powers - check Right to Privacy - check Habeas Corpus - check U.S. Security - check Active Military - check Reserves - check Guard - check Material Resouces - check Veterans Benefits - check Foreign Relations - check International Treaties (Esp. Geneva Conventions) - check U.S. Economy - check U.S. Currency (Value)- check U.S. Currency (Dominance)- check U.S. Federal Agencies (Professional Staffing) - check U.S. Federal Agencies (Oversight / Consumer Protection) - check U.S. Federal Agencies (Science-based Policy) - check National Archives (Executive Records and Email) - check State Banking Oversight - check State Insurance Oversight - on deck State Enviromental Oversight - check State Rights - check Yep - crazy as a loon. True, none of this rises to the level of damage wrought on our nation by a blow job, but it still tends to raise hackles among anyone with half a wit and a hint of a clue. Unless of course, you swallowed the entire rig long ago. The only real questions left are how many members of this administration seek unspecified and broad presidential pardons before Bush leaves office and which corporations they end up working for in the future. The list above constitutes a wishlist OBL could only have dreamed of and is the basis for my clearly insane consideration of these men as traitors and unindicted felons.

That's because the fringe element here on the right can't quite wrap their pointy little heads around the idea that their guns have done nothing to protect our nation or its Constitution from the ravages of the traitors currently inhabiting the Whitehouse. With regard to hijacking, the carnage resulting from the actions of a few fundamentalist extremist have been fairly comparable whether you are talking about the World Trade Center or the destruction of the GOP. The real difference is that the far right neocons in the administration have damaged our nation in ways OBL can only dream of.

No, the hypocritical extremists who hijacked the republican party are the nutjobs.

"moral relativism." Last I checked the was defined by the gap between what republican leader's say and how they conduct their personal lives, let alone the real effects of their political actions.

Agree Roughly, our country was deliberately and quite successfully divided by the republicans. This was a wildly successful part of a deliberate political strategy which included winning the south over from the democrats. It had its roots in the 80's, but really picking up steam in throughout the 90's with the ascendency of Ralph Reed and the "Abramoff-Norquist-Reed triumvirate" (with no other than our own Karl Rove riding as the fourth horseman of the [current] apocalypse). In the process the old GOP sold it soul to the devil. And while some still cling to the illusion of a Disney / PG version of GOP ideology - it no really longer exists. Hell, even the memory of an honorable GOP in the Eisenhower mold no longer exists. Today's GOP is hypocritical in the extreme if you look at the actions and personal histories (family values - now there is a real joke) of the overwhelming majority of the key players. Their collective behavior, in fact, borders on being indistinguishable from organized crime. Further, if Eisenhower is cognizant at all he is roiling in anquish in his grave. So the polarization of America isn't just that some happened to move left and some right. America was polarized by the deliberate and skillful use of race, religion, and fear to remake the politics of vast tracts of the US in a mythical, far right makeover of the GOP worthy of the special effects of a hollywood blockbuster. The 'old' GOP is not real or represented in action, belief, or deed on the part of those who put it over on America. Sadly, they killed what was the 'GOP' for at least several generations in the process.

Sounds like this one popped up on its own and would again if it fell into complete disrepair. Given it's going to be there anyway, and locals probably would have gotten around to it if it went down, sounds to me like not a bad opportunity to do something collaborative and constructive together with the rangers.

Really not that much different than what far-right, christian evangelicals spew 24x7 on TV when you get down to it, and if you swap in 'god' and the 'bible' for 'allah' and the 'quran'. Being in their face certainly doesn't help. And in hindsight, leaving the world's oil supply in the hands of a few desert tribesmen at the beginning of the last century and then not fostering democracy and education among them was probably a convenient, but unwise decision given the Saudis are now the real problem.

The problem is that if your idea is that we close ranks behind a bunch of unindicted felons and traitors who have essentially sold out and tanked our country in pretty much every single respect, then I suggest you think about that proposition one more time. And yes, Serenity, I and most educated folks understand how gas prices work here and abroad - the question is will uneducated rural red staters. Pretty hard to pin $4.17 a gallon 'illegal immigrants' and the welfare state - not when, as you say, Exxon is racking it up big. Come November we'll get to see if they are completely blind and stupid three elections in a row. Oh, and illegal immigrants are of zero importance beyond serving as Karl Rove's 2008 stand-in for Gay Marriage and Abortion - illegal employers are the heart and sole (literally) of the problem and if you could do the tally you'd find hypocritical, but nonetheless patiotic republicans are the vast beneficiaries of illegal employment.

Well, by fall all those rural red staters, who have to drive a piece to get anywhere, are likely to be just tad testy after a summer of gas at $4.17 a gallon. And shoot, if that just won't get a passle of Republicans elected for doing such hot damn good job fighting for our oil. Oh well, maybe democracy will be taking root and those darned Iraqis will be voting in free and fair elections by November and you know that will really make up for all the pain here at home.

Rack simulators of all kinds are, by their very nature, less than satisfying. I mean, wtf, when I want to size up and fondle any kind of rack, I like having it right at my side where I can get my hands and fingers on every little nub, spring, sinew, curve, and detail. Not knowing how it actually feels on me, reaching for it, or even momentarily putting that littlest nubbish piece in my mouth in the midst of a delicate placement just seems wrong. Or is it just that I'm generationally ancient and still addicted to endorphins derived of physical rather than virtual stimulation. Call me stupid - but when something or someone is going down - I know which side of the simulation vs. stimulation divide I'm going to be on every time.

That won't survive into next year and shouldn't. The Valley full of guns - what a great idea. You've clearly never been in the woods in the midwest during the first week of deer season when every wack job from St. Louis and Chicago celebrates the annual Budweiser hunt-and-drink-athon. It's a wonder the self-and-buddy-inflicted casualty rate isn't higher than it is, though it's already high enough to prove Darwin was correct about evolution.

Am I personally better off? Sure, does that mean most folks or the country is? In no way. The average American has taken it in the shorts economically again and again for this administration. That's why pay day loan places are now as common as dandelions. Add the subprime, credit card, and student loan scandals to the mix and you've f#cked most folks. Then throw in gutted agencies and eroded constitutional, environmental, consumer, banking, and insurance protections and it pretty well sums things up. And are you more secure? Definitely not - domestically you are no more secure than on 9/10 and foreign security is now a disaster and our military savaged. Overall security on every front is far worse than it was before 9/11. So sorry, but those are some pretty short-sighted and self-interested yes's from where I sit. I personally would rather not see a sequel to these felons and traitors any time soon.

Good for you. Hopefully it will work for you and you'll enjoy roped soloing. Let us know what you think about the SP once you get some yardage under your belt...

It allows the swaged loop to be attached to a chest harness to keep the grigri oriented vertically. Though, some of us just cut the triangular tab out from the one side by the biner hole, skip the chest harness, and call it good.