JosephH

Bill, so let me see if I've got this straight... You post up a thread taunting Raindawg using a specious argument about bolting and the 'environment', which itself comes after any number of threads on several climbing forums where you repeatedly defend bolting as being acceptable, desirable, and no big deal 'environmentally' speaking. So now, somehow, I'm rude for surmising from your various postings and 'poke-in-the-eye' drill signature that you think bolting away is a-ok. Becuse if that's not your view and opinion then I'd say you have a damn peculiar way when on-line of expressing whatever your opinion really is to people whom don't know you other than through your posts - which are decidedly and consistently pro-bolt. The worst-case conclusion one can take from them on face value is you have made the leap from rock as something having value as it is, in its own right, to rock as just another canvas or commodity waiting for a human to work and consume it. That view is entirely consistent with the core of the Judeo-Christian belief god put it all here for us to use and consume. The best-case interpretation I can envision from them is you just have a laissez faire attitude of 'whatever' when it comes to folks bolting away. That's also a pretty common attitude these days among a lot of older climbers and one I personally find hard not to see as simply 'not making waves', 'fitting-in', and 'going-with-the-flow'. Hell, some even go so far as to simply rewrite LNT, clean climbing, and the seventies in general out of history as either 'didn't really happen' or 'was just a few sporadic and inconsistent folks' - nothing could be farther from the truth. But, it's clear that some of us actually still holding to and deriving value from those 'ancient' beliefs is a pain in the ass. And my god, to actually question the overwhelming [uninformed] 'common wisdom' and [risk-free] majority opinion? Gadzooks, man! Are you crazy? Clearly, but then with via ferratas just beginning to [predictably] infect the US, maybe not so crazy. And make no mistake, via ferratas will be spread using the exact same entitlement argument which lies at the foundation of sport climbing. And I'd say we haven't begun to see your 'environmental' argument played out in further justifying them (nope, can't see that via ferrata from space or google earth). I'm betting it's only a matter of time before someone, somewhere makes an ADA access claim for a via ferrata on public land using the cables on Half Dome as precedent and we'll be off and running - and they'll be quoting arguments like yours in their court briefs. So, I'd say either be clearer about what you mean, or be careful what you wish for, because you do have a lot of influence around here. That, and don't light fires under other people in spray if you don't really care for the heat...

Someone collates the content I can stick it up on a site. Mark also has one he could probably clone pretty fast with a cut-and-paste job to produce one as well. Again, though, for me to do it I'd need all the content folks had in text or Word docs, jpegs or scannable images, and someone would have to go get the gps coordinates (I can get the fractional mile post markers the next trip up to monitor the Peregrines) - and I'd need it all by the 25th of this month. If you folks can do that I'll put it up, or as I said, it sounds like Mark has a similar capability. P.S. You'll have to sort out who's or what name you are presenting under and want on the website. It can be an informal organization or a group of individuals, but you'll need contact info for WSDOT and other agencies so you folks had better sort that out as well as they are likely going to ask whom they should be talking with. Maybe draft Bryan now that he lives here...

Some one might consider putting together an Ozone overview website where you could pull info together for WSDOT and just link to it in a feedback post. Also, MS Virtual Earth appears to have better satellite coverage of Ozone than Google Earth and you may want to consider doing a custom layer in it showing the extent of the place and the two pullouts. Probably would be good to get gps coordinates and exact, fractional mile post distances on the pullouts at each end of it as well. But I would still recommend attempting to get on the agenda and doing a [short] presentation along the lines I listed above. Oh, and be clear - if they are straightening the road through there by moving it north tell them you'd like a parking area with east and westbound access.

You should really push the fact this is a pre-Scenic Area recreational resource which, after much hard work, was rescued from the status of an over-the-roadside garbage dump and now serves both PDX and Southern Washington area climbers. That this significant cleanup and trailbuilding effort required no county, state, or federal dollars and the work was funded and performed entirely by local climbers. It would also be wise to say you recognize and acknowledge the parking situation is sub-optimal as it now stands and that 'the community' has been working to insure parking habits are as safe as possible given the available pullout footage. If there are any further necessary cleanup detailing or trail work to be done to make the place presentable then it might also be wise to jump on that as well, before various agency personnel start pulling inspection tours on the place. Ditto on collating any draft guide or other material you can produce on the effort which would show climber investment in this recreational resource. And any coherent presentation you could make as a group which would deliniate the past and recent history, illustrate the physical layout (trails, cliff, etc. relative to the road), detail the number of climbs and usage stats, and overall demonstrate climber-initiated investment would go a long way towards things working for, rather than against, climbers. It might also be worth noting Ozone serves as one of the few viable SW Washington climbing alternatives during the period of Beacon's Peregrine management closure. In general, an organized presentation will be far, far more effective than a rag-tag band of climbers speaking individually. In fact, it might be quite wise to try and secure 15-20 minutes on the agenda to present if at all possible.

What? You couldn't find any poison oak up there?

I wish. And trust me - no one, and I mean no one, wants it open more than I do...

though regretably not for most of the first half of the year... Last two years after Beacon opened I was driving past stacks of cars at Ozone only to arrive at an empty parking lot at Beacon. Works for me...

This project will shift the highway to the north in order to straighten out several curves... This would appear to be the key construction initiative which, on the surface of it, should allow more room for parking if you can work it out with WSDOT. Did anyone figure out if NFS is the actual land owner of record?

It's pretty clear these days, whether you're talking climbing, mountain biking, or skiing, the 'many' folks of the generations you speak of, and who otherwise claim to be 'environmentalists', are in reality blatant anti-environemental consumers when it comes to anything that might impinge on their recreational activities.

Bill, what's objectional about bolting has little to do with 'the environment' in any comparative sense. And your 'scale' and 'associative' arguments are completely bogus on context alone. Bhopal and Chernobyl have nothing whatsoever to do with bolting or any context bolting arises in. And the fact other human disasters of various scales occur every day does not excuse or make out-of-control bolting any less a disaster in the context of climbing where it occurs. Your arguments could be just as easily excuse any travesty - hell, why worry about a rape in Portland when there's genocide in the Sudan? The only context they share in common is injustice and tragedy. It's a specious and self-serving mode of argument on the face of it. Look, the idea that you have no problem with the level of bolting going on is surely your own business. But, your projection that a laissez faire, judeo-christian 'god-put-it-all-for-us-to-exploit' approach to rock is somehow acceptable, or even desirable, simply because bolts are flying and it works for you no doubt keeps you in fine company, but it is certainly not a sentiment shared by all. To be honest, I don't really give a damn if I end up a minority of one for my views on bolting and likewise don't give a damn how unpopular those views are. They were, are, and will remain my views on climbing and respect for rock - clearly arcane and out-dated ideas in a consumptive age where convenience and community [self] service is all the rage.

I'd like to see that...

Uh oh, Bill is sounding serious about climbing this year - must be his semi-annual trip to the Valley in the offing and some hard climbing at Beacon when he gets back. I better start losing weight and getting back in shape...

Oh, but there is, I use pretty burly half-ropes on some FA's with a lot of loose and sharp rock. I have 7.8 twin/halfs that I wouldn't go near those routes with. I'm definitely in the 9.n range and only stout damn ones at that. I'm not overwhelmingly concerned with the twin/half/single rating in that 9.n territory - most will work fine in a half-rope capacity. Twins are another story - not much point in burly twins.

He was, as part of a private development. It's not something I agree with him on, but I don't think he's exactly breaking a sweat worrying about what I agree or disagree with him on.

Yep, he's still a model for everyone of making the most of whatever cards they've been dealt - good or bad. He's the same wildman as ever, he just expresses it differently these days.

Glad to hear it as I'll be getting down there sometime soon. Have to hit Red Rocks and get all my gear first though as it's sitting in a friend's garage down there.

When I get back down to Castle Rock that's the way I expect to find you - medium rare. If I get down there to find a totally baked, well done fat boy I'm gonna raise some hell.

I only mentioned that because I reinserted two stakes that had been either deliberately or inadvertantly removed...

Yeah, if it were open - and trust me, no one wants it open more than I do. But it isn't and for day trips that means Rocky, Broughton, or the PRG-O. I don't hate the place, I just don't care much for the rock and I wouldn't have done things the way they were done. But, I've been out there a few times with Jim and Larry and enjoyed myself. And hey, I'm glad it's there and that you guys promoted it so well and widely - it takes a lot of pressure off Beacon. Once Beacon opens nothing makes me happier than to drive by a bunch of cars at Ozone only to find I have Beacon entirely to myself or that there are only a couple of other folks out. [ Note: A word to the wise, though, don't f#ck with those survey markers or stakes - that's a well-funded effort by folks and agencies you don't want to piss off lest they piss right back on you far harder. ]

We went to ozone and did a couple of easy lines. Then we were going to head to Beacon but saw Bill Coe's car a pullout or two further up the road and attempted to locate him (of course his phone was off). So we turned around and when back to the main pullout and when back down and tried to find him there. No luck and we never did see him so we did another easy line and called it a day. I'm really out of shape - ugh. It was a beautiful day and we were surprised we didn't see anyone else.

Most of the advice in this thread is on when, why, or how (clipping) to use twins / half ropes where as Trog hits it here with his post and gets to the real heart of the matter - belaying. Belaying with half/double ropes is an advanced belaying skill no matter how you look at it. It is not easy, particularly when the leader is out of sight. The 'handwork' (fingerwork) involved with individually belaying two ropes is fairly complex particularly when the occasional circumstance arrives where you need let out and take up slack on different ropes at [ideally] the same time. Coping strategies and deft finger work are called for and you really want to maintain a strict attention to the leader and to the details of the job at hand.

It's not a coincidence the Master Cams look a lot like Aliens, Metolius is trying to provide another [safe] option to them. As for the trigger mechanism, I haven't yet played with one, but I believe that was one aspect of the Aliens which had to be designed around due to patents (maybe one on the sleeve and another on the internal springs [i'm guessing here...]). Mark, I'm still on the older Metolius cams as well and I tend to get settled into to things so I haven't made the switch to the Ultralights, either. But, I don't believe the Ultralights in any way represent Metolius going "down hill" - just them responding to the demands of the market relative to 'ligher / faster'.

Kevin - 7845 posts? Dude, didn't you just cross the 1000 post mark last month or have I just been stoned? I gotta go with with sirtokealot - it took me decades to learn to climb straight - I still don't do it very well. But, every now and then the stars align and you end up out at the crag completely unprepared and you've got to just go with the cards that didn't get dealt. Talk about stooping to the occasion - help me Mr. Wizard!

Pink_Chalk - what about you? Don't you have some sort of flexible scheduling going on...? Geoff looks to be in.

Can anyone play hooky and climb - Broughton, Ozone, Beacon's NW Face?