selkirk

I can agree with that. But it doesn't mean they have to be confirmed.

So what's your wife do?

It seems the checks in balances were designed to be active, and not just rubber stamps.

That's just a waste of money and won't fix anything. I think we should just give representatives and public officials raises. They deserve it for keeping the money away from the grubby poor people!

It's just amazing how rare common sense seems to be though.

Subjectivity... I think that's why a church develops an institutional doctrine, to maintain an objective stance apart from personal interpretations. Seems the consulting is more an art than a science. But, I could be wrong. How much degree of freedom does a priest have with regard to marriage consulting, I mean he can't deviate from doctrine. well, not officially, anyway. Had to do a required marriage counseling thing prior to getting married in a catholic church a few years ago (an awfully good requirement in my opinion), and while the priest himself usually toed the party line, he made it clear, that more important than following the party line it was important for each couple to to find a path that they could agree on, to understand the actions they were taking and why. Keeping the couple stable , happy, and connected was of a higher priority than oh say, the church's stance on contraception. So he made it clear that there were other options, some of which were discussed by the people other than the priest who were helping facilitate the thing. I know, I know, seems like a goofy thing to do. Marriage counseling before your married. And well, if you already talk and communicate well with your fiance you don't learn that much, but that's not the case for everyone. Of the three or four of these things i've heard of, everyone ended up with at least a 1 or 2 couple postponing their weddings because they realized they really didn't know as much aboutt their fiance as they should have, and really didn't have everything figured out yet. On a different note, the whole thing was organized and run by the church, overseen by the priest, but a lot of the discussions were run by two married couples (1 at 5 years, 1 at 15), so they had some people on hand who had experience with the whole stable marriage thing, and weren't only relying on the priest who had never been married. Speaking of which there is actually a growing movement to allow priests to marry. Will be interesting to see where that goes.

So long as what you want it to be is what I tell you it is

Someone takes their spraying a bit too seriously

Selkirk, Still confused... seems like you're arguing with me, but we're saying the same thing. There are many different areas of study available at seminaries, so giving you a specific course outline is a bit pointless, but here are a couple links you can knock yourself out with... http://info.wlu.ca/~wwwsem/syllabus/listen_with_heart.html http://www.trinitylutheranseminary.edu/Academics/CourseCatalog.pdf Obviously, if someone is truly interested in a counseling avenue, their 4-year degree coursework (before seminary) is probably going to be heavy in that area... just as you commented. If their interest is in music & worship, then they're probably going to have an emphasis on arts, etc. Again... we're saying the same thing: most of these folks aren't "untrained." I love spray, so freakin confusing. Not actually arguing with you knelson! Trying to enligthen foraker, JoshK, and Cj001f and the rest of the heathens On a different note it seems most religions in their best forms are open to some interpretation. That's what makes them capable of being more broadly applicable, than to only the time they were created in. Their may be immutable fundamental principles but they have to be able to breath and live a bit. Really not that different than the constitution or any good government. I think to say that the Bible (or any religious text) is immutable and must be read literally is BS. Far too many contradictions to be rectified. (I.E. Old testament stoning vs new testament, let he who has not sinned...) Of course a lot of people still seem to want to interpret it literally in each and every case so we get things like intelligent design, the occasional jihad, all kinds of good stuff. As far as the whole education vs expertise, priests as pedophiles etc.... all those arguments are red-herrings and straw-men anyway

Would you like me to dig up some sample curricula? They're trained for the jobs they intend to do, which are incredibly various. Remember they have to have an accredited undergrad degree in something before they enter seminary. I'd be willing to bet their graduate studies entail a great deal more than only theology though. Your right, going to school doesn't necessarily make you an expert on anything. But it certainly makes you more knowledgeable, and in a shorter time about the things you study than a layman. It still needs to be tempered with time spent practicing your art though. Just like Dr's, Lawyers, teacher, engineers..... Should I keep going?

Finally got my new toy! and had a chance to drag it up Orbit a couple of weeks ago. Really a pretty sweet little thing. Action is nice and smooth, and the trigger bar seems to keep the pull more stable than the old style single stems. I don't particularly like the whole thumb stud thing, and hopefully they'll replace it with a loop (ala the new C4's and Trangos) in the next generation. That said the action is nice and smooth, and it protects those weird little flaring pockets like a dream. Of course it's also good for all the standard cam things like parallel cracks. (Small opening, then flaring behind that, then pinching back down in the very back. It shrinks down to go in then can expand into the pocket easily but cleans easily as well). Out of 7 pitchs I think I place it 3 or 4 times, and all were bomber placements. The only side note is that it can't be with the cams fully extended (like Camalots, DMM's etc that have cam stops) The axle makes more than 1 full rotation so cam-stops aren't really feasible.

I think you're confusing "Priests" or ordained ministers from other denominational relgions with the "send in a coupon from a matchbook and become a minister" variety that seems to be predominate in a lot of fundamentalist non-denominational churches. The path to being an ordained minister is up there close to being a doctor. Not sure what that says about either career path... Big difference between a minister and a catholic priest. There are lots of people preaching with nothing but charisma and few bible versus. Though there are also some extremely thoughtful well educated ones as well. Likey anything else there's a spectrum. As for catholic priests, I just googled it and came up with this "Preparation generally requires 8 years of study beyond high school, usually including a college degree followed by 4 or more years of theology study at a seminary." Nope, these guys aren't trained in anything what so ever. (This is the same amount of schooling it takes to get an MD, or for some a PhD. Though the MD's still have a residency to go through once they graduate.)

Most religions are this way. A lot of people seem awfully lazy though, and are happy to let other people think for them.

Yep, people really should be actively trying to understand and develop their understanding of any belief set they ascribe to. Catholic priests kind of play the role of counselors and teachers as much as anything else. If all people do is go to mass, sleep through the sermons, and take communion, I guess it's probably better than nothing, but still leaves a lot to be desired.

What in the hell is that!

The whole abstinance only education track is blowing up. Teaches kids to be fearful and ashamed. It does end up increasing how long teenagers wait to have sex slightly (1-2 years?) But when they do, they're so misinformed and afraid to ask questions that they don't, resulting in higher pregnancy and std transmission rates because they end up engaging in risky behaviour out of ignorance.

Well, that's assuming you have a good reasoning thoughtful religion. I'm a slightly wayward Catholic myself, and most of things that they espouse have extremely well thought out arguments and reasons based not only on scripture but on ideal morals etc. If you've ever read the catechism, every last aspect of everything the church as a whole believes in is extremely well thought out. That doesn't bother me so much, it's at least been well thought out, even if I disagree on some points. Seems like when there is a social problem a lot of religions or sub-groups within the religions resort to "Lets trust the individual who lectures to us about how to think every week (or whomever is in charge) interpret the scriptures for us, and tell us what to do." That scares the piss out of me. Far too much power in the hands of 1, fundamentally flawed individual. It gives some people bully pulpits to spout whatever BS they want, and back it up with whatever portion of the scripture they like, while ignore the rest. So we end up with the occasional pogrom or vitriole against homosexuality while damn near ignoring poverty.

Democrats like to understand, talk, explain, and influence thorugh productive discussion. This works great if your a reasoning, forward thinking individual. Republicans seem to just want to tell people what to think, and that they should be afraid. Which is perfect for people who don't like to think for themselves. and fits well with the whole, people are sheep idea.

religion in and of itself isn't inherently bad. The ideas are typically pretty good. It's the tendency of a lot of people to give up their decision making power, and put all of their faith and loyalty to a single person in a possision of power who may or may not be moral, but is usually charismatic. That spooks me. I wonder which religions he looked at? Would be interesting to see how that applies to things like Buddhism, Shinto, Hinduism etc, or if he focused on the western religions?

I don't know about pathetic. They may be slimy, but they're damn good at it.

I can't believe this! They tore an arm of one of Squid's cousins!

I ran into a poor guy trying to return his "North Face" jacket to the store in downtown seattle a few years ago, with complaints that it wasn't waterproofed, and that the seems leaked. The guy at the counter picked up felt a seems and realize none of them were taped or sealed, which is why it leaked like sieve. Poor guy paid someone way too much for nylon jacket with a north face logo.

I dont' know that i'll be there but i'll spring for oil if someone posts pictures!

Not that I'd want to live down there, but wait till a volcanoe blows or big earthquake and people will be asking why we live here in the rain. Well, how often do we get a bad erruption? Every few hundred years? Not to mention they usually come with a good amount of warning. Throw in a reasonably bad earthquake, every what 20 years? And we get smoke, oh once every 21 years? How many hurricanes and tropical storms have hit Florida and the gulf coast? Lets see, were up to "R" this year so 17? Lets see, lots of damage every 21 years, or lots of damage every 3 weeks (averaged over a year), not to mention one of the worst earthquakes in recorded history was in New Madrid Missouri.... you do the math!