trad_guy

Doug asked, "Hey Trad Guy, How come there is no link from the cascades mountaineers site to yours?" Doug, go to CascadesMountaineers.org, click on links and scroll down to Northwest & Regional, Climbing Clubs and there it is just down from the Mazamas! Go to http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Links.htm and find CascadesClimbers, featured since the site began. CascadesMountaineers is listed under Mountaineering Organizations. There are more than 286 other selected links you will like. I am conducting a FREE seminar on self belayed Rapelling for Cascades Mountaineers and others on Saturday: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Prospectus_Rappel_06-08.htm Be sure to Reserve a place, Doug. Thanks for your interest! --trad_guy

porter, Registered: 09/19/03, Posts: 15,881 porter writes "While its healthy to have more than one source of analysis on Accidents in North American Mountaineering, i prefer sources that try to interview the actual participants, rather than relying 3rd hand accounts." Hello again, porter- I am not writing for the AAC on this event that occurred on Mt. Rainier. I do not feel I should contact the participants in this sad disaster, and I did not try to contact David Gottlieb, "chief climbing ranger and incident commander in the rescue". I felt the facts spoke for themselves in this case. The three climbers seemed to be totally unprepared and they left the security of Camp Muir into the teath of a forecast blizzard. They did have an FRS radio, so they were not "purists". Perhaps they did not know that cell phones worked well in that particular "wilderness" location. (And a $100.00 GPS would have surely saved them.) Perhaps David Gottlieb will contact me. There are some questions. I faulted him for not helping the public better understand how traditional mountaineering risks can be, in part, mitigated by - - - --trad_guy

Feck, sprayer, Posts: 8407 Loc: Seattle, WA "I started climbing in the 70s and I learned then that you have to be aware that you are going places where you can't call for help. That is what you have to prepare for. Today we have a lot of fancy pants devices that we can use, but that doesn't mean that things are different. You still need to be prepared to go climbing knowing that you can't pick up your cell phone and dial 911. I was down on the northeast side of Rainier this last weekend. Guess what There was no cell phone reception. Go ahead and post links to your stupid website. I ain't clicking on them, and I would urge everybody else reading this to do the same. You obviously don't know what the fuck you're talking about." Hey Feck, you have so many quick posts (8,407) you just don't have time to read! Hey Feck, just how do you "prepare"? AND, FECK, WHAT WERE YOU DOING WITH A CELL PHONE ON THE NORTH EAST SIDE OF RAINIER? --trad_guy

eldiente Wrote: "Buy more gadgets and you'll be safe! Stupid. Reading it sounds like that this site is paid for by AT&T or Garmin. As a whole I'm not a fan of Cell Phones in the woods.. " Risk is an essential part of traditioanl alpine mountaineering. Here is a good analysis of the subject: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Book_Risk.htm Here is a tragic event in Oregon that was carefully studied: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Report_Hood_EpiscopalSchool.htm Are you familiar with this? Is this what you advocate, eldiente? --trad_guy

W writes: "trad_guy: You wouldn't know it from reading your website, but "traditional mountaineering" possibilities exist beyond volcanoes in Oregon and Washington. Many of these places have a) no cell phone coverage whatsoever b)no Sheriffs, search and rescue teams, or helicopters whatsoever and, believe it or not, c) poorly accurate or even non-existent maps. In such places, your Responsibilities #1, #3, and #4 have absolutely no value. #2 is just common sense. I am curious what your advice for mountaineering in these areas would be- stay home? If your format is meant to be a rigid template to be followed for all wilderness travelers, then the future of the exploratory spirit of human adventure is bleak indeed." The BASIC Responsibilities are just common sense. If I am climbing in Alaska I learned the basics long ago, (or I am going with a Guide?). A problem is that the Sheriff just says BE PRPARED! but does not give a person new to the Pacific North West, any idea of how to be prepared. Here is what I suggest: "A suggested minimum standard news advisory for all backcountry travelers" "We would like to take this opportunity to ask our visitors to the backcountry of Oregon to plan for the unexpected. Each person should dress for the forecast weather and take minimum extra clothing protection from a drop in temperature and possible rain or snow storm or an unexpected cold wet night out, insulation from the wet ground or snow, high carbohydrate snacks, two quarts of water or Gatorade, a map and compass and optional inexpensive GPS and the skills to use them, and a charged cell phone and inexpensive walkie-talkie radios. Carry the traditional personal "Ten Essentials Systems" in a day pack sized for the season and the forecast weather. Visitors are reminded to tell a Responsible Person where they are going, where they plan to park, when they will be back and to make sure that person understands that they are relied upon to call 911 at a certain time if the backcountry traveler has not returned. If you become lost or stranded, mark your location and stay still or move around your marked location to stay warm. Do not try to find your way until you are exhausted, or worse yet - wet. Wait for rescuers." W, have you read our mission? THE MISSION of TraditionalMountaineering.org "To provide information and instruction about world-wide basic to advanced alpine mountain climbing safety skills and gear, on and off trail hiking, scrambling and light and fast Leave No Trace backpacking techniques based on the foundation of an appreciation for the Stewardship of the Land, all illustrated through photographs and accounts of actual shared mountaineering adventures." TraditionalMountaineering is founded on the premise that "He who knows naught, knows not that he knows naught", that exploring the hills and summitting peaks have dangers that are hidden to the un-informed and that these inherent risks can be in part, identified and mitigated by mentoring: information, training, wonderful gear, and knowledge gained through the experiences of others. The value of TraditionalMountaineering to our Friends and Subscribers is the selectivity of the information we provide, and its relevance to introducing folks to informed hiking on the trail, exploring off the trail, mountain travel and Leave-no-Trace light-weight bivy and backpacking, technical travel over steep snow, rock and ice, technical glacier travel and a little technical rock climbing on the way to the summit. Whatever your capabilities and interests, there is a place for everyone in traditional alpine mountaineering.

Hello G-spotter: Do you read Accidents in North American Mountaineering? 60 years of analysis. The www.TraditionalMountaineering.org website is free. There is no advertizing. We offer Free Basic to Advanced Alpine Mountain Climbing Instruction. We hold free ice axe self belay and self arrest and crevasse rescue clinics: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Photos_SteepSnowClimbing.htm Are you mentoring any climbers, G-Spotter? --trad_guy

Doug, an old hand asks: "Does anyone in Bend know this guy?" Doug, Gappertimmy knows me. Check us out! Read the website www.TraditionalMountaineering.org -trad_guy

cms829, states: "cell phone reception is not at all reliable on Rainier. at least verizon anyway. last year i was able to make one phone call from Ingraham. This year I couldnt get a signal on the lower part of the fuhrer finger or the DC at any point in time." Here is our page on the Four Basic Responsibilities: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Basic.htm Note that Oregon statutes providing for compensation for Search and Rescue Services mandate a means of communication to 911. Here is a full recent Analysis: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_Lost_Mt.HoodClimbers.htm Note that an RMI employee confirmed that there is Cell coverage from the Lodge up to to Camp Muir. An RMI Senior Guide confirmed this statement and added that RMI Groups decending from Camp Muir check in by cell phone. --trad-guy

Stefan, Posts: 1748, states: "One of their 4 mountaineering responsibilities in the person's analysis: 4. The Fourth Responsibility is: Carry your common digital cell phone, turned on! I call B.S. Cell phone reception is not reliable and therefore is NOT a responsibility of a person in a wilderness setting." Here is our page on the Four Basic Responsibilities: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Basic.htm Here is the specific paragraph: "4. The Fourth Responsibility is: Carry your common digital cell phone, turned on, in contact with any cell towers Insure that you have the personal option to call for medical or rescue services. I would prefer to call for help on Friday morning at the time my leg was broken and not have to wait until Sunday at 6PM when I will be reported missing by my Responsible Person. In our experience, there are very few areas in our Oregon Cascades where a cell phone is out of contact. Several cell phones in a group are far better than one. Phone rescuers on your cell phone with your exact UTM (NAD 27) GPS coordinates, your current condition and proposed plans. An important new free service is the ability of Rescuers to request from your mobile phone Provider, your general location triangulated from cell phone "ping" records or from a GPS chip in some new phones. Another option for many is to carry a $150 SPOT Satellite Messenger which can give your friends and/or 911 your exact GPS location. Oregon SAR Statutes require that you carry a means of communication such as a cell phone. Carry a personal cell phone turned on and positioned where it can best stay (warm and) in contact with the cell phone towers.: Note that Oregon statutes providing for compensation for Search and Rescue Services mandate a means of communication to 911. Here is a full recent Analysis: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_Lost_Mt.HoodClimbers.htm Note that an RMI employee confirmed that there is Cell coverage from the Lodge up to to Camp Muir. An RMI Senior Guide confirmed this statement and added that RMI Groups decending from Camp Muir check in by cell phone. --trad-guy

Climber dies from hypothermia in a brief storm on Mt. Rainier -- Analysis to aid in the prevention of a similar tragic loss: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_Lost_Mt.Rainier.htm --trad_guy

"It is kinda like Planter Fascitis.... but it is arthritis in the bones and soft tissues of both feet. The majority of the pain is in the toes heels and at the arch. I have some pain on the top of my foot. The thing that i am struggeling with is that my feet kill if i wear shoes that have too much support or not enough support... is there any one who makes custom hikers???" Muffy- If you live near Bend Oregon, there is a new store dedicated to high level runners and hikers. The store is owned by Rod Bien who also owns "Patagonia by Pandoras Backpack" in Bend. Rod is an elete long distance trail runner and a very dedicated guy. Here is a link to Rod Bien: http://www.fleetfeetbend.com/ --trad-guy

Muffy- It's not the Merrells, it is the costly special footbeds. Just use the Merrells and Thorlo "light hiker" model sox and walk five times a week, different distances and different speeds and elevation gains. Start out easy, back off when it hurts. "No brain, no gain". Your complicated foot muscles, tendons and tissues will adapt in a few weeks. Ankle support is a myth, propounded by boot makers and ski boot folks who just transfer stress to the knees. 95% of the PCT folks just use GoreTex type shoes like your Merrells. (I met one gal who had hiked to Oregon from Mexico in flop-flops because she got blisters from her boots the first few days.) Feet are strong (no, not stinky). ;-))

Hello Porter- I will add www.TraditionalMountaineering.org and also www.AlpineMountaineering.org "Free basic to advanced alpine mountain climbing instruction" MISSION "To provide information and instruction about world-wide basic to advanced alpine mountain climbing safety skills and gear, and on and off trail hiking, scrambling and light and fast Leave No Trace backpacking techniques based on the foundation of an appreciation for the Stewardship of the Land, all illustrated through photographs and accounts of actual shared mountaineering adventures." THE REASON TraditionalMountaineering is founded on the premise that "He who knows naught, knows not that he knows naught", that exploring the hills and summitting peaks have dangers that are hidden to the un-informed and that these inherent risks can be in part, identified and mitigated by mentoring: information, training, wonderful gear, and knowledge gained through the experiences of others. The value of TraditionalMountaineering to our Friends and Subscribers is the selectivity of the information we provide, and its relevance to introducing folks to informed hiking on the trail, exploring off the trail, mountain travel and Leave-no-Trace light-weight bivy and backpacking, technical travel over steep snow, rock and ice, technical glacier travel and a little technical rock climbing on the way to the summit. Whatever your capabilities and interests, there is a place for everyone in traditional alpine mountaineering. --trad_guy

In the Sierra Club in the 1970's on mixed company trips, we recommended everyone sleep naked. Most of those great trips were co-ed. We all stayed plenty warm as I recall. Of course, this is impossible today. It is not PC today. Life was very different in the 1970's: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Photos_TopRopes.htm (Follow some of the other pages under Read More.) --trad_guy

Hi Dave- Here is my idea: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/FAQ_Best_GPS.htm We use the Geco 201 allot, too, with a USGS Quad map, of course. --trad_guy

this is why i mention lithium batteries above Hello porter- Here is the latest I have on Lithium batteries: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/FAQ_LithiumBatteries.htm Thanks for the information! --trad_guy

Hello Traditional Mountain Climbers- There is a discussion of the Basic Responsibilities of climbers and others, framed in a discussion of the: "Oregon SAR Statutes and Traditional Responsibities". This new thread was started during the first week in February in 2008. --trad_guy

Perhaps we can have a lively discussion on the facts and conclusions in the following post: Based on several high profile fatal accidents on Mount Hood and elsewhere in the Oregon backcountry over the years, the Oregon Legislature has sought to define Responsible Behavior for individuals who require County Sherriff's Search and Rescue (Volunteer) Services. The definitions of Responsible Behavior are made in terms of avoiding charges for reimbursement of the actual costs of rescues, not to exceed $500 per person. Although I personally consider the Oregon State Search and Rescue Statutes to be archaic and quirky, I find that they are not stupid and un-fair. Traditional Ethics and Practices of established Outdoor Clubs such as the Oregon Mazamas, the Seattle Mountaineers and the Sierra Club's Angeles Chapter provide a framework for Responsible Behavior by climbers and backcountry travelers. These traditional ethics can be summarized as Four Basic Responsibilities which include the minimal gear included in the Mountaineers new Ten Essential Systems. These established Club Ethics mitigate essential Risk for hikers, backpackers, peak baggers and mountaineers as well as snow riders, snowmobile folks, horse riders and many other adventurous people. Traditional mountaineering is based on the premise that "He who knows naught, knows not that he knows naught", that exploring the hills and summitting peaks have dangers that are hidden to the un-informed and that these inherent Risks can be in part, identified and mitigated by mentoring: information, training, wonderful gear, and knowledge gained through the experiences of others. Lessons can be learned from the story of the latest lost climbers on Mount Hood. Let me be perfectly clear, Justin Votos and Matthew Pitts did nothing legally wrong. They did make a mistake or two, as Justin himself notes. We can all learn something from their adventure in January 2008 A QUOTE FROM 1871 See yonder height! 'Tis far away -- unbidden comes the word "Impossible!" "Not so," says the mountaineer. "The way is long, I know; its difficult -- it may be dangerous." "It's possible, I'm sure; I'll seek the way, take counsel of my brother mountaineers, and find out how they have reached similar heights and learned to avoid the dangers." He starts (all slumbering down below); the path is slippery - and may be dangerous too. Caution and perseverance gain the day -- the height is reached! and those beneath cry, "Incredible! 'Tis superhuman!" This is a passage we found on page 161 of "Scrambles Amongst the Alps" by Edward Wymper, first published in 1871 and reprinted 1981 by Ten Speed Press, Berkley, CA. The main thing we can learn from the story of Votos and Pitts is the difficulty of descending, in a white out, the snow slopes on Mount Hood to Timberline Lodge and the large parking lot. One can not just walk downhill on the snow. Downhill can lead to the Zig Zag ice fall. This anomaly has been publicized by Portland Mountain Rescue as the "Mount Hood Triangle". One can not without training and practice navigate in a whiteout with map and compass. A simple $100 GPS and some knowledge can mitigate, in part, this danger. The simple GPS has a pointer feature that literally "points" the way, simplifying the navigation for those who can set a waypoint and use the properly set-up device. Recent advances in technology have enabled climbers and other backcountry travelers to locate their position on a 1:24,000 USGS Quad topo map within a very few meters using the imprinted Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) one kilometer grid. These simple UTM coordinates, in meters, can be read from a $100 GPS that has been re-set from the defaults to Coordinant System UTM-CONUS, Datum NAD27 and True North. Simple numbers representing meters east and meters north enable one to plot one's position on the Quad map within a very few meters. Knowing one's position on the topo map enables one to plot a True bearing to Lodge or rig. It is not necessary to spend hundreds of dollars on a GPS with a color screen, 1:100,000 road maps, an electronic compass and accessory altimeter (unless you specifically want to watch the changes in barometric pressure instead of the gathering storm clouds) and FRS Radios, tide tables, sunrise and sunset information, etc. Please use the web page linked below to read the current Oregon Search and Rescue Statures and use them as a frame to learn from this latest climbing misadventure on Mount Hood. I welcome your constructive analysis. http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_Lost_Mt.HoodClimbers.htm --trad_guy

When where you told this? The eTrex Vista HCx has a setup option to designate lithium or alkaline. Hello EW- Ohmgosh! It is right there in the manual . . . An exception to everything! But I still don't understand the Lithium advantage. --trad_guy

Hello giza- Good confirmation on Lithium dangers. I hope previous posters read this information. --trad_guy Hello Bergsteiger- I think you mean the Vista HCx. However, REI has this model (25 hours) at $300 while the Venture HC (14 hours) is just $170, or $130 more. You can justify this for the 25 hours and the weather watch barometer in your wonderful backcountry. I think a member of your Club translated my suggested Four Basic Responsibilities and Ten Essentials (now Ten Essential Systems) a while ago? http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Basic_Spanish.htm --trad_guy Berg Heil!

Hello Bergsteiger! You have made some very good observations. I will revise my web page to bring it up to date with the new Garmin Models. Battery life has changed allot in a few years. The Legend HC and the Vista HC offer 25 hours on two new AA batteries. The Venture HC and Summit HC offer only 14 hours. (Garmin's warranty does not cover use of Lithium batteries, I confirmed today.) The data cord connections are now important. All these models have USB connectors, important if your new computer (lap top) does not have an RS-232 port. (You can get an adaptor for $60 and drivers from Garmin to use the older style RS-232 cords with USB, even now for the Vista OS.) Paying more for a barometric altimeter and for an electronic compass does not make sense. Garmin suggests you correct for barometric changes by adjusting to the geographic altitude given by the satellites. The electronic compass turns off when your begin moving and follows the satellites. (The pointer takes over.)Using them in a GPS is a throwback to the days of Selective Availability when the US DOD purposely degraded the signal. SA degradation ended in 2001 as I recall. The Satellite driven altitude and direction are very accurate today. You can pay more but you have more functions to deal with. The Garmin website has a world wide tool for comparisons among their models. I like the eTrex-H because I already have an RS 232 cable and I know the functions very well. I do not want a 1:100,000 map for backcountry. I make my own 8.5 x 11, color 1:24,000 UTM grid topo maps with the $99 National Geographic Topo program. The RS 232 cable is $35 extra unless you already have one. If I might need to connect to my lap top's USB, I would buy an eTrex Venture-HC for $182, including the USB cable. It does not have the redundant barometric altimeter or the (accurate to 5 degrees only) electronic compass. Yes, the battery life is 14 hours, but I save over $100. I carry two extra batteries in any case. (Note that it is not necessary to have the GPS turned on all of the time.) What are you climbing down there, Herr Bergsteiger? --Herr trad_guy

Hello billcoe- I have watched this thread with interest. You are right to be concerned about the cost of many GPS models. My earlier post(s) suggested the new $99.00 Garmin eTrex-H (H stands for high sensitivity antenna), a $6.00 USGS 1:24,000 USGS Quad map (or personal computer generated equal) and a $30.00 Suunto M3D declination adjustable base plate compass and the skills to use them together. I am talking about using the best GPS for mountaineering and backcountry travel. Google this phrase to read more. I am not talking about using the GPS for other uses. I am writing about using the map, compass and GPS together. Google this phrase to read more. Here is a brief explanation: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/FAQ_MapCompassGPS_Together.htm Batteries have been a concern of some on this thread. I can find no scientific advantage to using expensive lithium batteries in a GPS other than a longer shelf life. Care must be taken with some lithium batteries because the may produce too much voltage and shut down the GPS. Garmin suggests using rechargeable AA batteries, changing out batteries every day of use. Keep extra batteries warm if you are doing a track, otherwise, keep the GPS turned off in your pocket unless taking a waypoint or checking a True base plate compass bearing. Expensive GPS receivers with un-necessary electronic compasses and altimeters use more battery power. The eTrex-H can track all day on two AA batteries with the WAAS feature turned off. WAAS works marginally in the PNW. --trad_guy

Hi JohnGo- The main advantage of lithium batteries is a long shelf life. I noted that there is no need for lithium batteries. They cost a lot more than say, Duracells. Use them if you want, but what is the point if you use your GPS at all? Most users replace the GPS batteries after a full day of use, and use the old batteries for toys, flashlights, etc. Again, the two most recent lost climbers on Mt. Hood needed a GPS to find the parking lot. (It is not reported whether or not they had a map and compass.) If they still could not find the Lodge and the huge parking lot, they could have given their Responsible Person (the girl friend) their UTM coordinants when they called the first night. SAR could have given them the UTM coordinants of the Lodge Bar. Read this Report: Two climbers become lost descending Mt. Hood's South Side! http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_Lost_HoodDescent.htm Folks don't know that they don't know how to use their GPS, map and compass until they get into trouble and have to call for help (or wait until someone at the office notices they have not come in for a couple of days and tries to call them at home). Read this Report: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_Lost_JamesKim.htm Thanks for the compliment, JohnGo. --trad-guy PS: Keep the $99 super accurate eTrex H GPS in your pants pocket where it stays warm as noted by a knowledgeable previous contributor to this thread.

Garmin GEKO GPS $ 40 This GPS was purchased in 2005 and used 3 times for a property survey at my home. There is no known damage to the unit and no signs of wear. In my opinion, it is just about “as new”. All functions in tact. Sale “pending”. Which Geco is it? --trad_guy

The new Garmin eTrex H has a new High Sensitivity Receiver. This makes it top of the line compared to all GPS brands and models. The Garmin TOPO downloadable maps that you must purchase to have topo maps in your GPS costs an extra $100 and includes the Ten Western States on the single disk. The 1,900 or so quad maps for Oregon take up eight CDs just for the one state! These Garmin TOPO GPS maps are made for vehicles (and motorcycles)and not for climbers. The Garmin eTrex H combined with a paper Quad map and a base plate compass would have saved the latest two climbers who missed the Lodge and Lodge parking lot and ended up less than a mile from US 26. Navigating in the backcountry takes some study. Here is a reference: http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Seminar_Navigation.pdf and http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_Spot_PLB-Plus.htm Climb on! --trad_guy