marylou

Gotterdammerung is German for "Twilight of the Gods". It is the title of Act III of Wagner's epic Ring Cycle opera. Actually, for what it's worth, it's the fourth and final opera in the four-part Ring cycle. We gotta deal with old Siegfried and all of that before Valhalla gets to burn down in Part Four.

Maybe he finally realized that being a bully isn't good for his health OR for his karma.

In reading this, I immediately thought they must have wired the guys with wireless Lavs. Bill beat me to it. It's entirely possible that the mics were either hidden in their hair or in their ties. I would not be at all surprised if they had wireless Lavs as a backup in case something went wrong with the regular mics. It is not at all uncommon to have a backup mic system at a major event. Anyway, if Monkey Boy had Uncle Dick or Rummy talking in his ear, he would have done a LOT better. Edit: I went and looked at the pictures. That is the weirdest place to put a battery pack thing I've ever seen, no matter what the device is. If you put it in the small of the back, it's never seen under a jacket.

The Lightweight Backpacker does a good thorough job.

I don't know, looks like a pretty rock solid debate to me. They are probably taking notes so they don't miss points on their rebuttals. Edwards does look good though.

I think their packs carry really well for not having much of a frame. Let us know how you like it.

I have had a chance to chat with a buddy of mine that was on one of the local teams. He was not surprised to hear that there was some mess left behind from the Ropes section, as apprently there was a bit of a bottleneck below the fixed lines as the guides held teams so they would have enough separation on the ropes. He also indicated that he'd be willing to spread the word in the local AR community if there's a need for a clean-up day.

Good of you to note that, Greg.

Doing the clean-up on this would do a lot of good IMO in our attempts to build a better relationship between the climbing community and the FS. If there is a clean-up day, I will let my friends know who participated in this year's race, and see if they can get more folks from the local AR community involved. If they see how much of a mess the SPQ people left behind, and then maybe they'd put pressure on SPQ to do better in the future. FYI this event was covered nationally, it's a national event, and will be on TV in January.

Yeah, I could see the "good relationship" coming out in spades in the recent thread about parking passes.

It's too bad so many among us are so down on the Forest Service, a good relationship between them and the local climbing community might have averted this mess.

I like the MontBell Thermawrap for a lightweight piece with some good insulation. Pro Mountain Sports sells them here in Seattle.

5 dollar pizzas at the K and K!

It's a rip roaring time in yon chatter tonight.

Yep, you're right. It doesn't say "for all" in the mission statement. What's your point?

I guess I see user fees for hikers and climbers no different than fees for other types of users. As far as inclusion, the National Parks' mission is access for all, and given that, if we were to eliminate fees in one area or another, that is the place where I'd like to see the fees eliminated, or at least made optional. I know that runs contrary to the level of amenity provided there, but is consistent with the mission of the NPS. I find it interesting that the primary issue here seems to be that there is a perception that the FS doesn't manage their money very well, and we should therefore not give them money. However you may feel about the FS's history of managing their funds, there is no denying that the FS needs money to maintain the FS lands. Seems to me the energy would be best spent forcing the Congress to better fund the FS, and to pressure the FS to manage their funds in a manner consistent with what you want. Refusing to pay the fees really doesn't solve anything.

So are Wilderness areas. Locally, our NFs have a LOT of Wilderness land contained within. Boats have to pay license tag fees. Fishermen pay for fishing licenses. Additionally, the markers in the waterways are used by many more than us recreational types, which is more than you can say about a trailhead privy. Congress allocates the FS's budget to them. Money "earned" by timber sales goes into the General Fund, and does not stay in the local district that generated it. In order to assure there are still amenities there in the future, buy your Forest Pass locally (money from the sales of passes stay in the district where they were bought) or better yet, do two days of volunteer service and get your pass for free. That way, you get the opportunity to give something back, and you don't have to worry that your money's being wasted by the FS. The difference here is merely scale. The road and trail to the remote location need maintenance too. Everything costs money.

Mtngrrl, what "compromise" would you suggest for a 23-pitch route put up illegally with a power drill in a Wilderness?

This is wholly incorrect. NPs can (and do) have Wilderness in them. Also DNR land can have this designation. I'm *pretty* sure NRAs can too, though that's an unlikely place to have Wilderness.

And the chatter returns.

Yeah, the Forest Circus has a lot of resources for chopping big long routes that were illgally bolted in Wilderness.

Okay, then can someone show me when and where the Forest Service is currently subsidizing logging or timber companies? Please use specifics. Maybe I'm not mad about something I should be mad about with this Fee Demo dealo.

WTA's position on the parking pass is not posted on their site, but I can tell you that they support it. That money helps with TM, and WTA does TM for the FS. Let me ask you this: You have to pay for sno-park for various winter recreation you have to pay for hunting tags to kill Bambi you have to pay for a fishing license even if you catch and release Should all of these other recreation user fees be abolished, or are hikers and climbers somehow special? If there were to be no user fee, would you also be okay with the elimination of all amenities, including privies, both backcountry and trailhead, no more road maintenance, no more trail maintenance, and no more ranger offices?

I have 7, and this was the info I needed. Thanks. Ray, I don't know what your problem is, but you can kindly GFY with your negative crap. Have a nice day.

Well, thanks at least for posting that. I get a little tired of hearing people complain about how the FS is subsidizing the timber industry when there is almost zero cutting going on in the NFs of the PNW at present. Personally, I use almost all of those categories, so I guess it's not such an affront to me to pay 30 bucks for a permit. I certainly get my money's worth.