johndavidjr

Mr. Moore has challenged anyone to identify an untrue statement of fact in his film. Interpreting the film intelligently requires the viewer to distinghish between facts and opinion. For example, this right-wing site, http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20040702.html purports to expose incorrect statements of fact in the film, but instead can merely suggest alternate views on the facts as presented.... BTW Fairweather, I'm dimly aware of a controversy in the mainstream press regarding Hitchens. I saw his film on Kissinger a couple of years ago(?) & found it perhaps similar in approach to that of Moore, but far less entertaining. Maybe as somebody else suggested, Hitchens is just sore his film was less successful. -------------------------------------

A few of you are confusing the term "fact" with "innuendo." We can rest assured there are no untrue statements of fact in Moore's movie. Perhaps he used facts at times to create innuendo, & this I think is what a few people have objected to. Personally it didn't bother me, as I wasn't expecting nor wanting to see a thorough history of Middle-East/US relations in a realtively brief political film.

Did hike from Lena Lake through St. Peter's Gate, solo. Didn't try Stone, mainly because I was tired of camping by then, & also had heel blisters, partly due poor judgment in socks department early on. Lots of snow on north side of gate-- all the way from last pond, in fact. Am not very brave, nor fit, & hike up to gate gave me slight pause due to all the snow. Not much on south side, but wuss that I am, kept out ice axe for a quarter of the way down. Found large pile of human turds in notch, which I kicked away into the scree. I took very light pack & did trip in a mere....three nights. Not fast, but light anyway. I avoided Lake of Angles for camp, as lake and its basin was still almost entirely snowed-in as of June 30, making for cool night in largely snow-free swamp just below. I trended too far left on descent from gate & hit some cliffs & brush just above swampy basin. Thank you Fairweather, for suggesting counter-clockwise travel. The direction made good sense, for various reasons.

I think what he said was "conservation may be a personal virtue" but that it wasn't a consideration in developing the energy program.

Brits never complain & had lousy prewar record on Everest & South Pole trips. But nylon is vastly stronger than canvas, and hiking poles are vastly stronger than Easton aluminum wands. Dunno about this light stuff. Mine's full-strength-type old-fashioned coated nylon.

People who administer the death penalty are the same ones who administer the motor vehicles department. The cases people have mentioned seem all highly exceptional and not particularly relevant. Re. abortion: Necessity requires people to make all sorts of unpleasant compromises, lawful or otherwise. "Touching the Void" comes to mind. ----

hmm. hmm.... creationism combined with notions that climate change is fiction, plus the other stuff, constitute an ill wind against reasoned argument. Maybe the answer is more spending on education. I agree that the Dose road isn't a big deal. It's only 4.5 miles, though it will cost a great deal of federal money indeed to rebuild. And yes all the tens of thousands of non-hikers/climbers will benefit, far more in number than backcountry users, and yes, I think these users should have the opportunity to drive back there, sleep in their trailers and stop at Brinnon to buy ice cream and enjoy themselves, as they have previously. But I think the issue is being oversold as threat to democracy, and in big picture of USFS policy, can be used by small groups with big vested interests to stir up people who can't quite parse things out for themselves. Hell if the USFS didn't subsidize the timber industry, there would be scads of money for recreation development--No? It's late here & I'm feeling cranky-- over & out. ____

Brinnon labor force; 260

If you want to read an eye-witness account of flying dinosaurs in Cuba, or why DNA is bunk, and various similar items, go to http://brinnonprosperity.org/focusitem_dosetrail.html and click on site marked Michael Crichton. Or, if you like, click on Freedom21 & read about "relentless drive of U.N. for world domination" and how the "property rights" movement, Phyliss Schafly and even a few Congressmen, at least give us a shot at saving Democracy. -----

Make that a 40-degree down bag. Us Brits are tough as nails.

I must point out that MSR TP has eight stake points, plus ability to put four guys at mid-height, relatively heavy fabric, and the two peaks have loops, which can provide as many extra guylines as you like. "Giving" with gusts will only make life more miserable inside tent. Brits certainly used similar all through 1930s on N. side of Everest, earlier in Antarctic plateau, etc. etc..& never complained much. But actually, somehow, I can't believe I'd really want a tarp tent on McKinley or such, so maybe you're right. (but I wouldn't want just a biv sack either.)

Yeah now that combo doesn't seem too heavy. And I'll beat our dead horse some more, and repeat that with snow banked-up, the Beta design is as bomber as it gets for wind. (They used Mega-Beta configuration for all early polar exploration.) I remember my old 2-pole dome on the beach once bouncing around absurdly in a heavy breeze. Very unpleasant without guylines. I suppose a free-standing would be easier to deal with in dig-out situations, but that's something I've never dealt with. Also in winter, I've never seen it quantified but in my experience a full-fly tent is warmer than otherwise. But can't beat floorless convenience in bitter cold, of dumping pee bottles in snow, inside the tent (melts hole, and then freezes), spilling beer cans, etc. However, am now leaning back toward taking my miserable Sierra Designs Divine Light for summer alpine bugs. The think is much like a bivvy sack (thread topic) except that it has a 30-inch high arch (SD Flashlight shape) placed diagonally across head of tent, resulting in a relatively wide doorway, and small hoop at rear. Advertised (formerly) at 20 sq.ft and 2.5 pnds. Nice idea, but I think Skoog or somebody, referred to it as a toothpaste tube, in a description of a Ptarmigan ski traverse, and said the thing almost contributed to death by hypothermia due to condensation I'd suppose. I've used it plenty but it has driven me nuts plenty, due to small size. ______

Re. Beta bug, looks sorta involved, & a bit heavy & tent might be as good a solution...though I really like the MSR super-size version of TP/BL, with or without netting.. Re post above on bugs & Mega, this is actually interesting & somewhat encouraging....Your mention of bugs' CO2 attraction makes me now think I'm wrong about theory of mosquitos not flying down to ground to get in... perhaps one could just build smudge fire or take lots of cigars.... Smear mess of bug dope around ground?

Yeah I'm with you. With 2 rigid poles, at least eight staking points and snow banked around edges, it's gotta be as wind-stable as ANY tent on the market. Without the snow it's nearly as stable, but wind creeps in. I've used rocks with some success as alternate to snow, but my MSR Twin Peaks (discontinued?) does have heavier fabric than BL. But whaddabout bugs? Seems like biters might not figure out that they'd have to go down to ground level to get inside, but I fear that's wishful thinking...

I've used an MSR job similar to Betalight for a half-dozen trips this past winter & spring, & find it's really terrific (Door design of Betalight is better in snow, probably, & BL is much lighter). Am wondering how the general design works for keeping out bugs (with door shut). Anybody have experience or opinion?

Ah-- Fairweather, a man I respect, prompts me to confess that I started this thread in mean-spirited mode. I've used all the major approaches to park in past 28 years, & really I suppose rebuilding Dose as a practical matter is pretty neutral overall and especially good for the Bart Simpsons of world (who deserve some consideration). But it does require compromising the very thing that is most attractive about the Olympics, and I continue to find the background for certain viewpoints on the issue a source of amusement.

Okay I won't reply to SB. But to GD: I'm not actually from New Jersey originally, but am now a mile from WTC, & this ain't what people mostly think of as NJ. Of Washington residents in 1990, 48% were born there. I'm certain native-borns in Puget Sound today are much fewer than 48% (some from Colorado). Herr Gotterdamerung: I'm glad you feel good about yourself based on where you were born, but it would be unfortunate if this were to color other aspects of your world view. Any way, here is an interesting & relevant link from a remarkable organization that effectively works to advance many goals of society, not the least of which is commerce: http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/migration/pob-rank.txt ________________-

Post deleted by johndavidjr

Hey man! It's called cut&paste---you're making a really weird assertion to simply deny the links are there. What's your problem? Most of these links are quite wild stuff even for the average Republican. They are under "related resources" on lower left-hand part of window. http://brinnonprosperity.org/focusitem_dosetrail.html ------

Re: Sailboy post. "We need to preserve old growth but increase the yield from timber lands." Except for the 20% they've clear cut so far, isn't all the 5 million acres of Tongass timberlands old growth? (TNF has 11m+ acres rock & ice.) "The Indians made a practice of burning...." They must've had an especially tough life in coastal rain forests. "Of all building materials...carbon fuels.. bla bla Here's a nice solution from link provided by your Brinnon friends http://www.envirotruth.org/ BTW Forest Svc Tongass Web site says its net loss on Tongass timber sales is $106 per thousand board feet. Annual harvest has I understand, varied in past decade from 400m+ to 100m+ depending on market conditions in a given year. My math is weak but whatever the annual subsidy, it's sizable, Perhaps they'd should just pay it directly to the relatively few workers involved, cutting out middlemen. ----------------------------------

Population of SE Alaska Panhandle, essentially what they call Tongass, is reported at something under 68,000. If a third of that number is in labor force, that's 22,000 who are interested in employment. Let's say, this group is equally divided between government, service industry, tourism and timber. That's 5,000 people potentially having or wanting jobs the timber industry of region, compared with roughly 100 million people in US labor force. So we should worry about those folks proportionately to the US economy. Or are they special? Is it okay to balance their interests with other interests? Keep in mind, MERELY for the sake of proportion, that the Federal Reserve wants 4%-5% of the labor force unemployed, not counting "illegals," in order to keep down inflation without supposed need for high interest rates. That's 4 million -5 million people who are SOL. But board feet can do a lot of talking on Wall Street, which does contribute a great deal to the political process. A side note: the Wall Street neighborhood, a couple of square miles, reportedly lost 25,000 jobs as result of recession and 9/11 & only a few thousand have come back.

Who is this guy Larry Abraham? I can't seem to find any reference to him in mainline publications & I can automatically search 5,000 of them, though maybe I didn't search correctly. The item seems to be a string of assertions, many wild. What are we supposed to learn from what he has written? THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS AND THE GREAT CALIPHATE By Larry Abraham

This is an old controversy known to enrage some Western climbers & is article of faith among some Eastern climbers. This is also off-topic but you brought it up. At my ability level, I must say, I'm probably unqualified to offer an informed opinion, so I'll just defer to local sentiment. But just to babble on about it, I first heard the idea from somebody who did a number of (alleged) 5.12 first ascents in Connecticut during an FA boom of sorts that took place there in early 1980s. In Connecticut especially, most climbs are very short, perhaps never more than a full pitch, and this was offered as part of the reason why all those whimpy Westerners supposedly over-rate their climbs. But to modify the idea slightly, it seems like at least a reasonable theory anyway, that rating of moves at cragging areas might, on average, tend to be stiffer than on alpine routes, and Eastern alpine routes aren't easy to come by. I do think its safe to say that published ratings are often inconsistent, no matter where one goeth.

Now wait, the S.S. was just the relatively small "political" unit of the military? They were the guys that did all the bad stuff, while rank & file Wehrmacht (nouns in G. capitalized) did the heavy lifting. Mustn't forget they all failed disasterously, with miserable destruction of German cities, due to blunders of leadership, Russian blood and U.S. capacity to make bombs & steel.

I guess my experience on Torment isn't relevant at this time of year, but I tried it in late July, I think in 1995, and found gully from Taboo glacier melted out. We were forced to the left of gully, on rock & I found it rather hairy in (stupid) plastic boots, & bailed pretty low down, before reaching intended route. It wasn't difficult by ordinary standards... don't know at all--but maybe we wandered on to 5.7 (adjusted for NW ratings)? In process of bailing, my partner nearly rapped off end of rope into moat. Not entirely a good day, but fun. I think Becky rates the face at class 3 but warns that "aid has been used" in later-season couloir melt-out. The chimney to left of peak looked quite unpleasant, though Becky rates at class 4? I dimly remember. Torment to me is a really compelling objective though, especially by route you mention. I had good experience on WR Forbbiden a couple of years before, though I hear W.Ridge Couloir can get troublesome, depending on snow.