Jopa

gee, i couldn't imagine anyone would want to pass this up! have fun!

someone said that there had been a path cleared through the washout (not by the fs but by a climber). can this be confirmed by anyone out there?

I got a plastic or rubber jacket. It does not breathe like gore tex does not either. I got it for free. I am pleased except that it doesnt have under arm zippers and the hood is small. Where are the good jackets that are rubber or plastic that have these features?

"so when I'm in your neighborhood, you better duck, cause Ice Cube is crazy as....." I remember when some kid gave me that tape during lunch (I think I traded it for some oreos or something) in the fifth grade. Make that a third

mattp I think there is much more to this argument. Perhaps I'll come to a pub club and start up the debate again! At any rate, I think you and forrest_m make some good points.

Jopa - I guess this depends on whether your objection is personal or philosophical, i.e. I don't feel qualified to judge other people vs. I don't feel ANYONE should judge other people. If the former, I think you can just follow the system. Go to jury duty, tell the truth when they ask you questions, and if you truly believe that you can't judge others, it is unlikely they will let you do so. If the latter, then I suppose civil disobedience would be justified. But I don't agree with that proposition, so don't ask me how that might be accomplished... I can only speak for myself; speaking on behalf of others would be claiming that I have some truth that others do not, and I definitely do not think that way. The former solution you offer is exactly how I would handle the situation if called upon.

I agree with you there, Matt. In fact, I have used the legal system to my benefit when my car was stolen (twice). But what other option do I have? Are you saying, then, that I should be forced to accept civic duties even though I may reject some of those duties on moral grounds? This is a topic I have much interest in so your honost feedback is much appreciated!

Can anyone quote me a newspaper that is not garbage?

Matt, it may be how our system works, but should I not have the choice to decide whether or not it is something I agree with? It has nothing to do with not wanting to spend my time serving on jury duty, I am only saying that if we claim that this is a free society, then I should have the choice to accept or reject the system that was constructed without my input or approval. Now one can respond by saying that if I choose not to participate, then I shouldn't get to take in the benefits of the system (protection, infrastructure, and the like). This may be true, but it does not mean that I shouldn't have the choice to decide whether or not I want to participate. Many people use the "freedom of choice" bit because they are lazy; but some of us actually believe it!

Serving on a jury when called is part of your civic duty, so serve already. Do you try to weasel out of voting too? it is only a duty if she accepts it as such. It's a civic duty whether she accepts it or not. I expect you're the sort of guy who bitches about the results juries return, but are too important to pull your part of the load? There are plenty of ways of getting out of jury duty (saying your name is Trask, claiming you've got a sick kid or plane tickets, just not showing up) but without a willing jury pool, there's no justice. Everyone I know who's sat on a jury has come back really glad they had the experience. (I've been called but never chosen.) No, I am not that sort of person. I am the sort of person who believes in choice. I am also the sort of person who personally believes that I have no right to cast judgement on my peers, regardless of their act. This is my choice. Civic "duty" is also a choice.

I am definitely in! I'll even offer to drive.

Serving on a jury when called is part of your civic duty, so serve already. Do you try to weasel out of voting too? it is only a duty if she accepts it as such.

Back in the midwest someone showed me how flashing my headlights between lowbeams and highbeams about 6 times in quick succession could change traffic lights from red to green....seriously. I tried it a few times, seemed to work best a few hundred feet from the intersections. Haven't tried it out here in the PacNW. i was told that in the midwest as well.....crazy midwesterners!

I have similar thoughts/wonders. I believe the reason for the "flaming" is because it is a way for climbers to rationalize their activity. If we are able to pick out flaws or mistakes in another climber's accident, it allows us to rationalize to ourselves that climbing in itself is OK. I don't think this is exclusive to climbing, though. Anytime a car accident occurs, or a plane goes down, it seems that reactions are similar to a climbing accident. The public points out flaws (mechanics failed to see the engine failure...blah blah) and then we can all go back to trusting our infrastructure again. Structural reinforcement exists everywhere, not just in climbing. Good topic

well said!

The hardest part would not be doing the route (it seems much of the wetness avoids the route itself) but getting to it... I think there were some washouts on the road near there. 2060 Clear Creek 10/21/2003: CLOSED Closed 1.6 miles up by 150’ x 3’ deep debris deposit on road and changed channel. I just talked with the lady there at the Darrington Ranger station and she said the status hasn't changed.

did you think they were easier than the grade suggested, harder, or were they all over the place?

i'm pretty sure dmm cams are the same weight as the wc hexes with the spectra slings.

EAST SLOPES OF THE SOUTHERN CASCADES- SATURDAY...MOSTLY SUNNY. HIGHS NEAR 60. NORTHEAST WIND AROUND 10 MPH. SATURDAY NIGHT...MOSTLY CLEAR. LOWS NEAR 30 TO THE MID 30S. SOUTHEAST WIND AROUND 10 MPH. SUNDAY...MOSTLY SUNNY. HIGHS IN THE UPPER 50S TO MID 60S. EAST WIND AROUND 10 MPH. SUNDAY NIGHT AND MONDAY...MOSTLY CLEAR. LOWS 35 TO 40. HIGHS IN THE LOWER 60S.

That reminds me, did you ever go up to Squire Creek wall again this fall? You mentioned in some thread a while back that you were going back there for some adventure. That place calls to me even though I know I'm not experienced enough to go there!

where in the midwest are you going?!!!!!

Is there a point?

the certain 'behaviors' of a certain culture in mourning is a "social construct" but the universal need for mourning is not. it is innate. if it weren't we would not see this in completely isolated societies. Is it safe to assume that isolated societies have norms that are completely independent of any other? I don't think so. An isolated tribe deep in the Amazonian bush at one time was not in the Amazonian bush; at some point they migrated there from another culture, undoubtedly taking with them some of the characterstics of the culture they left. I'm not convinced that mourning is "innate" as you say. We have really digressed! What was this thread about again?

I agree with you 100% Should he be considered an asshole for not subjecting himself to a norm that has been socially constructed by others? apparently you do not agree 100% I agree that it is a universal norm; I'm asking if someone should be outcasted for deciding not to live by it.