glassgowkiss

you most likely need to get fitted witha pair of orthodics. you van get heat molded footbeds at REI or Feathered Friends in Seattle. Sounds like you have developed plantar faciatis

I think it's the access in general. In the past few years we found ourselves without a few very good places to climb. One more comment- so if Cave Rock is so fucking sacred why is a highway running through it not getting closed too? I am sure roaring semi- truck adds a new twist to religious ceremonies. simply i don't buy this religion shit in this case.

yes, lucky us Smith is a State Park and doesn't fall under a jurysdyction of FS. It's ok for the FS to sell the land rights to mining and logging companies, it's ok to built system of roads to anable clearcutting or open pit mining. It's ok to have lakes of cyanide, according to them it's the proper use of the resource.

I agree. FS did not care if there were bolts or not. As the matter of fact during the second meeting one of the managers said it was up to the climbing community to determine a way to protect. The issue was CLIMBING ITSELF. IT WAS OUR PRESENCE THERE. so dwiner- get this, whether you like like it or not you will join the ranks of people effected by this. Even more. Climbers who normally would just limmit their activity just to sport climbing are going to venture more and more into the more remote areas.

This guy is a "moderator"???? P.S. You don't know me, so don't act like you can speak for my actions ("oh wait do you do so [climb] now?") and motivations ("jealous tirades"). And by the way, I'm not making excuses for the pitons. They were a problem too....most of that went away with the clean-climbing revolution until it was seemingly forgotten. So pal....you get a clue. so get a clue yorself- don't tell me you have never rappel in your life? as far as i know you have to leave at least a sling behind. unless you're so fucking honed you can downclimb every route out there. maybe you should go this weekend, do a Chiante Spire and downclimb fucking thing and prove us all wrong. your comment was a total wenk fest pal

i think that was his point. dont climb them. you are so full of youself. it's obvious to me you can type on a computer much better then you climb.

playing a nice guy, trying to negotiate in good faith and be resonable. You can do it if there is level plain field. The truth is, that only through strong arm lobbying efforts we can keep climbing. every major battle was lost- Hueco, Cave rock, N carolina... the list goes on and on.

Sphinx- i think we should start with a change of Access fund aproach. They are have losing track record and their strategy doesn't work. I stared where it hurts the most= no more money for them. As a matter of fact a couple of major outdoor corporations started scaling back their support. We need someone with good legal background and who will stand up for climbers.

oh you're so, so little minded my friend. I've got some BAD news for you- you are next. FS is still debating a ban on ALL fixed anchors in the wildrness areas. That includes pitons, bolts, slings on horns. So my friend next time you rap down some chunk of rock in the storm you might find yourself paying a hefty fine, just because some deepshit with pornoculars was watching you from the road. Let's leave bolting/ non bolting issue aside. This should be an internal climbing issue. As far as I know if you climb you need to protect it somehow. Pretty soon that won't be possible....

Tim- this is the scoop. Climbing in the caves started in about 1990. the first one was bouldering area at the entrace to Skaleton Cave. This cave was used for years as local teen party scene. climbes cleaned up the broken glass, moved ash and fire pitts out. in 91 first routes in Hidden Forest, Charcoal caves went up. There was another initial cave, which by the way WAS a bat hybrenating cave, so I will not mention it. Climbers voluntarly agreed during these meetings to stop climbing there. Even more, they proposed to remove and block the entrance road. There were about 18 to 20 routes (bolted) between the 2 remaining caves (3 in Charcoal and the rest in Hidden Forest). The motor behind this cave closure was a guy- Larry King. He is Portland resident, works as legal aid in some ambulance chasing office. It had nothing to do with habbitat, bats or any of that. He was just bent on banning ANYONE out of the caves. I admire his lobbying, esentially he made FS life a living hell. letters, constant phone calls. in 94 and 95 FS started public meetings. There were 4 meetings. During them we thought a compromise was reached. The deal was that the climbing will stay, no more new bolting. Then the whole shit stared. FS issued a ban on usege of "drying agents" (read chalk). A couple of the climbers were issued a ticket. In the meantime Larry King was showing up at Portland rock gym. Somewhere about '97/98 bolts were removed, under a blind eye of the forest service. The conclussion: no more climbing in the best climbing area in North America!!!!!! There were other meetings with FS representatives during that time, also with FS biologist. Bat habbitat was never an issue as far as Charcoal, Hidden Forrest and Skaleton Caves go. The problem was with the whole picture Larry King - he was bent on banning climbing from HIS pissing territory. As rule #1 any govenment pencil pusher doesn't want a pain in the ass as his/hers job, hence they started accomodating this fucker. My take on this is simple. First you remove user group out of the area and then you can do whatever you want. I would not doubt that any legal action would reverse several FS roules in this matter. Their decissions were unilateral and go clearly against the agerrents made in mid '90s. The problem is this was a marginal climbing area for majority of climbers. Access Fund doesn't want to spend money on defending this area due to minimal number of users. In my opinion Access Fund is a very inefective organization at this moment. It lost EVERY major battle with land managers. I would say there must be a major shift in thier strategy. They had some sucess back East, mostly by doing land swaps, but they were mostly issues with private land. There is also a VERY DANGEROUS TREND among the climbers. Any time there is "protection" word involved climbers start to repeat useles slogans. We are shooting ourselves in the foot by blindly ageeing to so called "envirormental protection". Most climbing bans have nothing to do with resource protection.

babnik- have you ever visited these caves, do you even know where they are? you are taking pure shit buddy. if these areas were so sensitive, I am sure everything what was sensitive died years ago with a smoke from tire fires and in a barrage of gun fire from drunk rednecks unloading boxes of ammo there. actually climbers were the one protecting these areas, cleaning fire pits, not allowing target practice. Maybe you should educate yourself first before blabing estabished slogans. are there bats there? yes. is your presence detrimental? yes. again. the "their impact is greater than our impacts" thing is bull shit. These were not the caves where the bats hybranate. so WTF are you taking about? yes "you're out of your element, so shut the fuck up Donnie" I walked with Will Nazarian and a FS biologist a couple of FS managers through these caves. I sat through all these meetings. Bat habbitat was never an issue. this has nothing to do with impact, it's just unilateral decission.

I think that's the last user group I would want to be affiliated with as a climber. An steel gate barring access to the cave would be the same as the Muir toilet. If a small fixture is what it takes to prevent widespread impact, then so be it. I was mostly talking about the bat populations anyway. They can still fly in and out. F8- do you even know what are you taking about? have you even been to the place? bat population my ass. even FS biologist stated during the meetings that climbing has such a minimal impact on bats, it's neglegabe compared to everything else. as the matter of fact there are only 5 or 6 caves where bats hybrenate through the winter, hence should be avoided between november and february. hidden forest cave was not one of them. this is pure arbitrary decission, which makes no sense and goes clearly against the agreement from 8 years ago.

you are correct, i think in the mid 70's. we did not climb in that one (i think it was skylight cave?), but i remember walking through there in ankle deep ash.

babnik- have you ever visited these caves, do you even know where they are? you are taking pure shit buddy. if these areas were so sensitive, I am sure everything what was sensitive died years ago with a smoke from tire fires and in a barrage of gun fire from drunk rednecks unloading boxes of ammo there. actually climbers were the one protecting these areas, cleaning fire pits, not allowing target practice. Maybe you should educate yourself first before blabing estabished slogans.

and this was after FS agreed to keep the place as status quo, ie. no more bolting and no pulling bolts out. this is how much we can trust these fuckers. FYI i was personally present at all public meetings in 94 and 95. these caves- 3 of them- were not really caves, but big overhangs. Hidden forest in particular. it sets a dangerous presedent every overhanging feature can get cassified as a cave= zero climbing. i am sure there were issues. the biggest issue was Larry King ( a guy from Portland, not a TV host) and his personal vendetta on climbers and any other users of the area. he wanted his own personal pissing territory. he lobbied hard for about 2 years to achive his goal. he was the one, who pulled the bolts out of the caves, after using Portland Rock Gym as a training ground. The routes in hidden forest cave were rather on the hard end of spectrum, hence there was only a small group of climbers= no problem with overcrowding. it sported some of the hardest routes in the country, most likely first 8c (14b). Access Fund was involved. I think their tactics don't work, I am stoping to support these guys. There must be a major change in the strategy or we'll find ourselves without places to climb in the US. Every major battle on access issue was lost by access fund. I think the tragedy is that they go to negotiations trying to be resonable, while the land managers have thier minds made up. The strategy should be to fight as hard as junkyard dog and in case of any closure to sue the fuck out of any land manager establishing climbing as part of regular recreational activity. Yet another point- most of the enviromental organizations are in a sense anti- climbing. climbers rather should seek support of groups like snowmobilers, hunters and such.

hey mr radon, you should go driving in poland or slovakia. my friend went so fast through a speed trap, that the pigs didn't even have time to pull us over. speed limmit is just a suggestion. hey, it's easy to drive a car on an empty road, try to pass arow of cars with oncoming trucks and no shoulder! next time i go there i need to bring my digital camera to show you folks how the driving should be done. peronally i think new audi A3 kicks ass and if i had enough money it would be my choice. new pegout turbo (205?) is not bad either.

my point exactly trask- you are like the rest of them dumb fuckwad with your head up your ass. Chill man. Did you drink too much? not enough. did you think i am going to get touchy- warm-feeling over the summer? NOT trask can dish out, he can take it too.

I know exactly what Bob means on this one - it's one of my favourite pet peeves. Approaching a red light, with a car in the left lane ahead of you, but apparently intending to drive straight through when the light changes, since they're not signalling a left turn. So you pull up behind them at the light, and when the light turns green ... then they hit the turn indicator. But now you're stuck behind them for however long it takes for them to be able to make the turn. If they'd had their turn indicator on while they were waiting, you'd have known they were turning left, and you could have changed into the right lane and not got stuck behind them. Basically, it comes from not understanding the purpose of turn indicators. They aren't for telling other drivers what you're doing at this moment: they're for telling other drivers what you're planning on doing, giving everyone a little advance notice of your intentions bravo- one thinking brain

my point exactly trask- you are like the rest of them dumb fuckwad with your head up your ass.

reading some of the posts people seem a bit confused as far as climbing terminology. for all of you sprayers out there who might have some questions- there it is. doing a free climb (sport, trad, multi-pitch, alpine- you name it) means REDPOINTING EVERY PITCH. it means not pulling on gear before cliping the anchors, not hanging on the rope while leading (brownie points- leader and second do the same). so when you wrete you chest beating tr please take it under the consideration.

most of them. :95% of washington drivers in washington suck big donkey cock- oh don't get you panties all bunched up in a wad- it icludes you dildo. 1. driving on the left on the freeway without passing. left lane is for passing only 2. merging into trafic on the freeway using your brake and forcing traffic to slow down 3.pulling to itersection and turning a blinker on to do left turn AFTER the light turns green. 4.talking on a cell phone while driving and being a complete asshole oblivious to what's going on around you (look #1 and driving on the left lane). 5. driving under speed limmit with no traffic around. 6.speedning up when other vehicle is passing your slow ass. if you are guilty of any of it you are just a psyho-ass-puke and you deserve a bazooka-plow treatment. also there is way too many cops on the road here. driving back from squamish to b-ham we saw 4 police cars on the road hunting for speeders. wtf??? aaaa... christmas bonus for a piggie....after all state troopers have to have more then coffee and donuts for their party.

95% of washington drivers in washington suck big donkey cock- oh don't get you panties all bunched up in a wad- it icludes you dildo. 1. driving on the left on the freeway without passing. left lane is for passing only 2. merging into trafic on the freeway using your brake and forcing traffic to slow down 3.pulling to itersection and turning a blinker on to do left turn AFTER the light turns green. 4.talking on a cell phone while driving and being a complete asshole oblivious to what's going on around you (look #1 and driving on the left lane). 5. driving under speed limmit with no traffic around. 6.speedning up when other vehicle is passing your slow ass. if you are guilty of any of it you are just a psyho-ass-puke and you deserve a bazooka-plow treatment.

so e-rock, don't pretend like you are my best butt-buddy on this forum or even remotely know me. if you'd new me at all you'd know that i will say the same to your (or as the matter of fact anybody's) face. a little credibility and self control.

can we have another amazing tr about V2 boulderproblems and "relentless" 5.10 cracks fa in the 60's?

wtf? i am trying to fid out what it was. guidebook description for the approach for the passanger is quite shitty. it says go from the notch 300 ft. it's more like 600 yards. so by misteke we were on something new. there are 2 sets of new bolt anchors, with slings on the bolts. the line we started climbing has 3 fixed coperheads on the 1st pitch. i would guess the pitch was about low 5.12. we thought it might be "Mightnight Route", but according to the info it's also more to the climber's right. it really looks like a stellar line and i am simply trying to find some info on it. all the guidebooks suck big donkey kong, the route descriptions are very, very shitty and the pictures are even worst. rumr said it might be a project........ any comments?