chris

Sorry, Dave, maybe my smart ass language was a little unclear, so I'll spell it out for you. According to this page, , REI carries both gloves. If you were to take them there, you could potentially receive a line-of-credit or refund. Good luck...

I think there's more evidence that locals push it too far because they feel more familiar with the conditions and the terrain than visitors.

I'm not an engineer (not even close - my bicycle can confuse me), so I did a quick check with BCA. Follow this link, and click of the PDF "Obsolescence and Analog Avalanche Transceivers: Ensuring Downward Compatibility-ISSW 2004 by Bruce Edgerly and John Hereford" http://www.bcaccess.com/tech_library/tech_reports.php I'm reading a copy of it right now.

I can tell all of you from personal experience that nothing is scarier than helplessly watching your partner suffering from a full asthma attack at 14000', 240m up an ice climb, in northwestern Sichuan Province, China. If the meds hadn't worked she would have been in a world of trouble. It was also a scary moment to realize that the air pressure and temps effected the pressure within her inhaler. In her case, this expedition taught us that cold air actually irritates her lungs and makes her more susceptible to asthma events. We're experimenting with neck/face warmers this winter.

I think the only way its gotten away with being bolted is its location and lack of publication. Moonshine and Sunshine dihedrals aren't bolted, are they? I vote for the chop...

For simplicity and user-friendliness, the Tracker still appears to be the guide industry's favorite. Its probably going to be the model montanapup buys when she's ready to. I'm using the Barryvox, for the customization that was mentioned above. If you have experience using transceivers - especially older analog models - then something like the Barryvox will work great for you. I'm really concerned with signal degradation in older beacons. So, I'd consider purchasing a new transceiver, or sending in your old one to the manufacturer for maintenance and a tune-up, every 5-10 years.

Maybe, but think of yr favorite trad route. Now what if the next time you get on it you find bolts all over it? Could happen. But maybe yd just ignore them, fine, but theres no denying that the "bolt/sport" mentality has "re-visioned" what climbing is. Imagine House landing a chopper on top out of NP Rupal Face over a couple years time and buliding way staions, putting in bolts fixing cables, and then climbing it and claiming a "First Ascent". I know thats an extreme analogy, but thats one thing that "sport" climbing has brought with it, an distorted view of what it means to "climb". Things change, thats true, but some effects of the "anything goes" attitude are fucked up. But that's not the trend in North American climbing - in fact just the opposite. Lines that were once considered impossible to protect, and therefore bolted, are being climbed trad and the bolts are getting the chop. "Mixed" routes - lines that utilize natural protection, with sparingly used bolts to protects "X" runouts, are being established. There is one sport route over in Leavenworth that I'd like to open a discussion about "rehabilitating" to this standard. In fact, your Rupal Face analogy is an example of the old mentality - to use hardware to beat a route into submission, leave behind fixed lines and fixed anchors. Just look at the debate sparked when the Russian team won the Piolet d'Or for their Himalayan FA using refined 40 year-old big wall strategies. More evidence? I just finished reading The End of the Beginning, Alpinist Iss. 18 pg. 50-57, a shining example of how hard sport and gym climbing, mixed with the demanding trad ethic that Pope and Raindawg talk of, is pushing another generation further. Would anyone argue that Joshua Tree is over-bolted? The despite the presence of sport climbing venues across the country, from Rumney to Smith, the trend is not to bolt everything into submission. The few examples of this distorted using of technology are decried, argued about, and more often than not chopped. Grid bolting and squueze jobs are almost universally frowned upon. I'd argue that bolting next to natural protection is almost never accepted. There are examples out there of lines first bolted because they were "unprotectable", then freed trad, and the bolts subsequently removed. I agree with that standard - if the bolt can be proven to be unnecessary, then take it out (better yet, don't put it in).

Yeah, that's why I was looking around for used commercial models instead - less to rip out! Completely agree, Oly. Those Sprinters are the ideal, but they're still too new. Yeah Dan, that's the only source I'm finding so far. I even tried to look up rental fleets for sales. I'm just going to have to get off this computer, make some calls, and look around.

Actually, this isn't spray (or at least it could not be, if everyone can have a civil arguement about this). Its a debate about what constitutes progress and evolution in our sport, and if sport climbing has contributed or diminished the results. I just finished re-reading for the umpteenth time The White Spider, in which Harrer observed that the Swiss failed to make the first, second, or even the 15th ascent of the North Face of the Eiger because they insisted on applying "classic" techniques. He points out, several times, that the Austrian and German practice of climbing shorter rock walls at a hard grade made them more likely to suceed, a practice not accepted by the Swiss for another generation. I lived in Jackson, Wyoming, for a few years, and my skiing markedly improved. One reason it did so was the crowd I was in - a community of extremely talented skiers who lived there, skied there, and benefitted from the lifts, gondola and tram at the ski areas. Skiing inbounds in mileage and variable conditions eventually made us better skiers OB, and the community was large enough to "pull itself up by its own boot-straps", so to speak. I believe that sport climbing has contributed in a like fashion to trad climbing and alpine. Sport climbing has allowed a community to grow, has encouraged standards to rise, and has created more public awareness and acceptance of the entire sport more than trad climbers in the Valley or alpinists in the Cascades. To decry sport climbing is akin to arguing that the 50-meter sprint isn't really a track event, and equally pointless. Sport climbing is a discipline of climbing because of its simple existence. Pope can go ahead and argue that we should boycot sport climbing in all its influence on the sport. I disagree, and believe that his position is a minority.

Arguing about how well a route should be bolted is a topic here at cc.com with a long, colored, and...well...pretty beat history. Fact is, there are routes at Smith and elsewhere with a grey area of hard moves right off the deck, but a bolt wouldn't keep the leader from decking. One example I can think of off-hand is a 5.10 at Mt. Erie, with an ugly tumble if you pop of the opening moves (possibly off the bench). I found a suitable branch and stick clipped that first bolt!

Thanks E! My logic is that 2 people + climbing gear = 7 people with no gear (and a lot of mini's still have space for that!). Especially if I go for a no-frills interior. Nothing quit as decked out as yours. As I imagine things, it be used for long weekends to month long trips, but not to live out of long term. Putting the trip into road trip. What I want in my dream van: 1. insulation on the walls, foam on the floor, and removable insulation inserts for the windows 2. carpet floor 3. veneer paneling 4. a minimal bedframe for a mattress 5. plastic storage bins 6. maybe an electrical system to run a laptop and a dome light 7. a hook from the roof for a hanging stove 8. a stereo with an USB port

I just took the time to read this whole thread. I am so humbled. And - its really cool to see how we were talking about Mox back then, now that Layton and Eric have climbed it!

That's right (see, I knew it was easy). FA 1949 by Dick Eilertsen, Dick Lowery, Dick Scales, and Don Wilde on their way to traverse the ridge from Sibley Creek to Eldorado. Story is they got back and reported their FA to the Seattle Mountaineers, who refused to report the climb by that name in the interest of "good taste" (Beckey, Vol.2, pg 311-312).

WTF??? You're leaving the sunny and wonderful community of Bellingham?

Mister E's van conversion got me thinking and surfing the web, looking for used delivery or commercial minivans. According to the EPA website, the Chevy Uplander, Dodge Caravan, Honda Odyssey, and Saturn Relay have the best gas mileage.* I'm interested in: 1. hearing about people's personal experience driving these vehicles. 2. leads to track down used commercial sales (has anyone bought from the "Park and Sell" lots?). Why can't I find information on the internet? * Yes, I know that the EPA's formula's are messed up, but lets assume - at least - that they are evenly messed up and that these models have the best mileage for their class, OK?

OK, this one might be easy, but its by far the funniest I've heard. What peak was originally named "The Three Dicks" by the first ascent team, but later renamed?

ditto

I haven't found it to be noticeably different from using a Reverso. Its manageable, though, so I haven't worried to much about it.

Nice work!! You are on my list of people to call when I get a van!

Three letters for you, buddy. R...E...I

Yo Moderators, YO MODERATORS! G-money is completely right - move this over to the ICE CLIMBING FORUM!!! I am so bored right now...

The closed side?

Maybe they could take some of the million$$$ they're wasting bulldozing and rebuilding the perfectly good visitor's center and use THAT to fix the roads. Then they wouldn't have to raise the pass costs. The visitor center sucked ass. It leaked, was a bitch to heat, and cost more to maintain for three years than to tear down in three months. The only reason it hasn't happened sooner is that the Park couldn't get the funds budgeted to replace it. Good riddance. Hey Mike, are you guys back in Longmire yet? What happened with you permanent residents - are you back at home? Is there some sort of access from the back road? Is the bridge to the community center OK?

nnniiiiicccceeeee

Actually, I'm wondering how much screw was in the ice. Completely agree.