Dane

Trip: Ice field's Parkway - Polar Circus, Weeping Wall Center Date: 3/7/2009 Trip Report: The 'Hound and I took a quick trip north this week. Braving the $3.75 a gallon gas in BC (but $1.79 in Cd'A) and the Canadian station in Radium that hits your CC up for $100 no matter what you buy. Same station with a Subway inside at the Radium junction on the way into the park that shut down three of our credit cards on a fraud alert. Pricks! Arrived at Rampart @ 1am. Had a amazing breakfast of fresh smoked salmon, bagel and coffee. Started simul climbing at 11AM on the first ice and topped out just before dark at 6:30 and quickly started hitting the rap stations as the lights went on. Perfect conditions, light snow, cold and white out all day. Every pitch was fully filled in and a bit steeper imo than any of my other ascents in the last 3 decades. And for once, no hook fest happening. The SHIT has changed ice climbing. Freaking Hound! I finally had to give in and ask, "do you EVER even look at, let alone climb, anything, but the steepest line on every pitch?" The dude had smoked my ass bad by the end of the day! No pictures, 'cuz I had all I could manage just trying to keep up. Wanker, ya 'Hound! Rest and recovery day for the old fat guy on Weeping Wall? Ya, sure, if you take the finiest corner of vertical ice you can find right up the middle of the flow! Kid was stretching my gumby soul by this point. But cold (-20 in the shade) and sunny. Like cragging in Yosemite during the spring only different I then hid my long bars and admit I can't climb in the cold without dbl boots. That ploy keeps me from having to follow the 'HOUND on some henious c2c alpine epic! I finally lull the 'Hound to sleep with a promise of hard sends at Hafner to give me some well deserved R&R and shorten the drive home. The "Hound" laughing in my face again..3 pitches up WW. He finally borrows a 'real' tool and finds some rock to play on. and the same climb last year at this time....with a bit more rock. This one finally kept his attention for at least 5 min. Gear Notes: Polar Circus (and WW) are most easily done with some combination of 70m ropes these days. Trust me having done it with 150s, 165s and now 60m ropes, go for the 70ms and make the decent much easier. Mandatory rope gun if you can snag one. "Pounderhound" other wise known as Brian aka "Mr. Messner" was my personal preference for this trip ;-) Approach Notes: Are you kidding me? That is why we drive 12hrs, just so I don't have to walk. It is all part of my well planned, long term, conditioning program.

Climbing a lot in the '70s were you? It isn't a sematics discussion as there was no version of "modern mixed" in the '70s, simply because the tools of the day would take litle abuse on ice and none on rock. It is however a style discussiion, and that is clearly new. Raphael was one that also pointed that out a few years ago in his AAC mixed article. My point is "free" then, is not "free" now. I don't really care, but think the idea worthy of informed discussion. Gordon asked that I post the following for him. Hopefully he'll register and continue the conversation.

Guess you could argue that Bob. But when it comes to "modern mixed", which I would define by, torqueing and camming picks or hammers and hooking rock with the tools.....that has been a fairly recent invention as a primary method of climbing. So you would be wrong in your assumption. Lowe, Smith and a whole host of others were certainly climbing very hard mixed well before that all started. But what we are doing now is not what anyone was doing 30 years ago in Scotland, the Alps or else where. Terros got the "new" sport started I suspect and replaceable picks made it possible on a broader scale. Almost sadly there is little need these days to chop a step, chip a little ice, climb bare handed in sub zero weather, learn how to freeze a woolen mitten to cold rock or pound a long line of shitty pins in frozen cracks and turf. No, mixed aint what it use to be. "Hook and go" is a good thing in my mind. That is how A3 gets done now at M7 with less than half the original rack. Which should point out the error in your comment. Anyone that was actually there 30 years ago can point the differences. Gordon Smith and Tobin Sorenson's line on the Jorasses in 1978 is a prefect example. No hooking to be had as they both considered it cheating. You either pulled on gear or you did not. One was "free" and the other aid back then. Now we pull on gear (picks) as a matter of course and think nothing of it as we call it a "free" climb. And as I pointed out what would have been considered aid climbing 30 years ago and not mixed, but "cheating" to repeat what Gordon Smith has called it. So if you want to call it like it was, "climbing" was considered by definition "free climbing, "aid" was pulling up on anything, "French free" was pulling up on anything that was handy. And "mixed" was generally considered free climbing with crampons on. Modern mixed isn't any of those but most closely resembles plain old aid with crampons and tools ..but just a bit faster to accomplish.

Dave brought the Slipstream film over this morning. Interesting to hear Dave's comments as well having done all three routes on Trophy wall among other hard ice routes. Short review of the the film for accuracy? Sorry it isn't. Suppose to be the first ascent of Slipstream. But this one was filmed the fall after the first ascent and just a month or so before our 2nd. John Lachlan and Jim Elzinga did the 1st ascent over 3 days. This one has Dave McNab (an very good Canadian climber) and John Lauclan on the 1st ascent done over 2 days and through a storm. Sorry didn't happen. John is also using a Simond Chacal and a Forrest Serac Saber. A Stubia Rupal tool is shown as well. JL didn't get his Chacal till after the summer meet in Chamonix, the next summer after Slipstream. Also very clear they rapped down from the summit of Snow Dome when using the helicopter (obvious trails in the snow) and then did the last pitch of climbing on Slipstream for the camera. Looks like at least two versions of the finish pitch filmed and maybe three but obviously none of them WI6. Although there is a ramp, not what I'd call a pillar, of water ice that they are climbing on just a bit left of where you'd normally finish. By the look of it they climbed a bit of the water ice ramp which we (1st 3 ascents) all did to get off but moved right a tiny bit later and higher up for the film. Either way I don't believe a actual ascent of Slipstream was made for the film. This film certainly might well be the beginning/basis of a lot of folk lore though. It does show McNab with a Forrest alpine hammer as a third tool. Certainly implies a "pillar" done at the end of the climb. Which looked like WI 4 at best to Dave and I. But certainly nothing harder than you would find lower on the climb. And the film would have you think it took two days to do the 1st ascent of Slipstream when in fact it was 3 full days. Decent TV, but really, really bad history. There are some decent shots from the helicopter of the upper portion of Slipstream though and a look down the N face if you are quick. Fun to see the old gear again as well. Galibier helmet and a Ultimate, Lowe expedition pack, Jansport dome sans fly, leather boots, Supergaitors, Whillians harness, old Chouinard screws, SMC rigids and straight shafted tools, all period correct for 1981 I'm making copies and will try to get it up on Youtube shortly. Thanks Dave!

With 16,512 members on the forum and 236 votes with half voting more than once I'd suspect. I'd say we should have a catagory for "inactive" climber.

Mf sapped a few old brain cells back to life of JL cutting down the Serac Saber picks and recutting the teeth by hand. I think I actually saw that old films back in the day with John narrating it for all of us sitting around in the lodge...with much of it filmed at Weeping wall. We are getting together in the morning for a viewing and then I'll make some copies. Gotta say I am pretty excited to see it again. In the mean time check some of these out. They are really good! ...some pretty good ice climbing with modern tools. http://www.tvmountain.com/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&task=viewvideo&Itemid=117&video_id=1079 this one exceptional for our conversation http://www.tvmountain.com/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&task=viewvideo&Itemid=117&video_id=272 and

Randy makes good stuff at CCW. WT aint bad either. Too bad it is the wrong size.

what is the metric size?

MF, sent ya a PM.

For those interested I took the time to research Slipstream a bit more this morning. I had choked on the "direct finish-never repeated" comments I had seen some time back and thought bull shit. Just never interested enough to go look it up till today. Albis' 1st and 2nd addition never mention a direct finish, and Albi worked/climbed with lived around JL long before his death. First place I saw it was in Joe Josephson's 1st additon (3rd edition of the guide) after Albi's first two. I now believe Joe's discription of the direct finish to be in error. From Joe's description, "on the first ascent of Slipstream JE and JL climbed directly over the serac barrier via a long, ferious pillar of water ice (WI6) that only occasionally forms. It is likely no one has repeated the original finish as everyone heads right up the snow ramp" In personal conversations with JL the next winter/spring ('81) of working together that "ferious pillar" never once entered our conversations of Slipstream. And we had many, mostly discussing the then new WI and the older Scottish grades and how they were applied. Anyone know how to get in touch with Jim Elzinga? I've left a message for Joe to see his what/who he used as a source for the guide. From JL's first hand account in CLIMBING #63 Nov/Dec '80. This is the only info I had on the route when we did the 2nd. Gary hadn't even seen the article. JL's only mention of the Serac. And no WI6 which would have easily been the hardest lead on the entire climb. "Breakfast went amazingly quickly...before long we breezed the Serac, ran across the top and rapped down the cirque" Pictures of JL btw in the article at the base of the climb and moving together in the lower gully clearly (to me anyway) tied into a set of Serac Sabers with umbilicals. Although I was wrong on a detail I mentioned earlier up thread, JL is pictured in the CLIMBING article using the green Stubia Rupals (hammer and adze) on Nemisis just previous. From another JL first hand account: Vol 63 CAJ 1980. Slipstream, 2500ft. Scottish Grade 6 Dec, 27/29 1979 (no WI grade given since it wasn't yet in common useage) Again John's only mention of the upper serac. "We managed to stamp out another tent platform at the top of the main pillar and on the third day moved together up the easy snow slopes and surprizingly straightforward serac. We stood on top at noon." Again no mention of a WI6 finish in JL's personal account. Although he does mention the difficulties on the lower pillars. Again JL from the 1980 CAJ. "The second day we crossed to the main ice pillar, doing six pitches, five of them being very high quality waterfall leads. We hauled the first (the steepest) but because it took so much time avoided it higher up. We both discovered that leading with an overnight bag on your back more than a little exhausting." I leave it up to the reader to decide if there actually was a "long, ferious pillar of water ice (WI6)" on the 1st ascent. When you think about Serac danger, remember that John and Jim spent three days on this route....and they were very, very familiar with the Serac dangers in their home turf. Perhaps that helps to bring the current observations into prespective. You also need to remember that Scottich grade 6 had little to do with the technical difficulties back then. The 6s in 1980 were, Polar Circus, Slipstream and Upper Weeping Wall. That was it! Even Nemisis freed was rated a 5 and clearly the hardest ice climbed to that date (1980) by Albi's writings. (and by unwritten acknowledgement John's and Jame's opiniions as well) It was a very short list for a 6. And that was about to change. I was the only one pushing a Scottish 7 grade for Slipstream because it was so much more than Polar Circus. Not harder by any means just "more" in an alpine environment. But that idea was shouted down several times over beers by my Canadian "employers" with Carlo non plussed. From my journal again.. I wrote, "Scottish 6+ pushing 7, WI 5+". (compared to Polar Circus a week before) Slipstream was one of the first climbs to blend a truely alpine environment with a lot of waterfall ice. In "ICE WORLD" Jeff Lowe called Slipstream, "at the time was probabaly the hardest high mountain waterfall climb in the world". What was missed then in all the talk of Slipstream was a 2nd climb and similar climb done by Lauchlan, James Blench and Dwayne Congdon in the winter of early winter '80. Aggressive Treatment, VI 5.8 WI4. (CAJ '82) From personal comments to me that winter all involved thought AT much harder and a lot more serious than Slipstream. A.T. was a true winter alpine route with some waterfall climbing. No wonder their grades were skewed! I believe now that Aggresive Treatment was the first of many modern, hard, mixed, winter Alpine routes to come, like M16, Wild Thing and House of Cards. Latter that same season, Polar Circus was first done in a easy day by Carlos and I. I think both of us having climbed it before. I had anyway. Although Ed Hart and Matt and Jamie Christian may have beat us to it by a week or so with my encouragement and beta. My home town, Spokane buddies, John Roskelly and Kim Momb followed us the next day. Just a season before JR had wanted to take haul bags on the climb. That winter I had soloed up to the first pillar in an hr. or so which kinda nixed the idea of haul bags Which would be so obvious 30 years later. Upper tier of WW was done in a day as well but I have forgotten by whom, Albi and James I think. John Tarver soloed PC shortly after JL's accident. And the race was on. edit: Sadly, I just realised that three of the guys I have been writing about are now dead. Sad, I wish they were all still here to enjoy telling their own part of the story.

Hey John, tell Pukie's best friend to return my call or email! I still have a piece of his clothes if need be. He'll know what I mean. Sounds like a fun trip! It was you that turned me on the our history. Besides the tools off the Solvak I have accumulated all the tools I used on routes important to me (less one freaking set) and a few extras. Looking at something like 30 plus and the 'pons to go with them. Been fun! Just missing a pair of Dachsteins and a Chouinard rachett I some how just gave away No one else wants this stuff, I'll put you on the list.

Phoney Steve is back at it tonight. Just got a PM looking for old gear. Sell it yourself on Ebay instead of giving it away to this lying piece of shit.

Grant, as I said earlier, no disrespect intended. I really mean that. I think you made some good observations some I agreed with and some I didn't. Not like either of us has to be right or wrong! JL's tools? Could well have been a hammer John took on Slipstream, only Elzinga knows today. If JL told Windy that, then you could make book on it. Did he actually climb with them, I doubt it. One you have pictured is set up as a rock hammer. The Serac Sabers are clearly visable in Albis first book, on Nemisis, the CAJ I think and in the "CLIMBING" mag issue that they (John, James and Albi?) wrote up the harder climbs in.(Slipstream, Nemisis, Central Pillar) The 1st free ascent of Nemisis is the picture I have handy. Pretty close to the Slipstream ascent date wise which is why I think he was using them. But things changed really fast in those days. JL also climbed Polar Circus with Jotterand with a set of Terros before that. I'll look around in the morning and see what else I can dig up for pictures or article JL wrote. The tools you show on the link, I now own, and were a newer version called LifeTime tools, by Forrect. First replaceable pick tools I used. I borrowed Gregg Cronn's ( a pair of 50s) for most of the '81 season while he was in school and climbed a lot with them. Picks we used were a reverse curve, most like a Chacal but a bit shorter. They worked well. The Forrest Serac's had fixed picks at the same angle as a tero and came in either hammer or adze. Typical 40 to 55 sizes. While I knew Albi we never got a chance to climb together. My 1st addition is from '80 that I bought in Feb of '81. Haven't seen the guide yet befor we did Slipstream and had no clue how to get off which turned into a minor epic wondering around the top of Snowdome in the fog as it got dark. Some big freaking holes up there! Albi's last pitch desription in the 1st ed. reads "a final pitch of 75-85 degree ice leads onto easy snow slopes. Exit climb via right edge of the Seracs." That had to come from John or Jim....not me. I didn't even know those thosE guys until after Gregg and I first did Polar Circus in early Jan '81. My journal entry written a couple days after Slipstream says, "two hard pitches #1 & #3 with 2 or 3 more, ice leads to more steep snow slogging {dangerious stuff with no pro}. Final 20M section of vert ice and snow to summit." I would take from that we simu'ed all but the 5 or 6 pitches in the water fall sections with little or no pro. Then finally got in a ice screw again and belayed the last 60 or so feet. I do remember climbing up the right edge of the exposed rock high on the left side of the upper bowl and being extremely dissappointed I couldn't get a pin in. Scared me bad, so that much I remember. I do remember distinctly being more worried about taking the big ride off the climb in the spindrift build up from the upper bowl (which blasted us all day and seriously scared me a couple of times on lead) blowing in from the summit ice fields than I was about the difficulty of the climbing. We had just done Polar Circus the weekend before and nothing even remotely like that on Slipstream. I do however remember looking over the N face at some point short of the flat summit snow field, stopping and taking in the view. Some impressive exposure. Seracs? You live there I don't now. I trust your observations of what is there today. My observations come from comparing pictures I took when we did the N face of Temple directly up the seracs in '76 and Snowdome in '81 and ones I took last winter in '08. Remember we were the first generation to intentionally climb under big seracs. Some more than others with Twight and Radcliff bringing it to the illogical conclusion. Temple obviously pops once in awhile, Notably a huge one that got filmed shortly after our climb which is more logical imo than Lowe's. The flake off the Serac on Slipstream that released on Carlos and Renshaw was imo an aboration and obviously a danger we could easily see from the road. (another of those "how bad can it be it just got done condition reports") The serac cliff looked pretty solid and "safe" to me having been under more than few notable Candadian seracs in those years. The tragic accidents that I have followed since our ascent looked to me more like loose snow avis from the obvious loading off the summit slopes. That is going to happen anytime there is wind across the icefields...which is what, 365/24/7 up there? Descriptions and accepted risks change with the new generation's experience base and mentality as well. Screws? Everyone climbs in there own style. I was really shocked to realise just how few screws I use to climb with. All the current screws are easier to place these days. I don't see a reason to run anything out even if the tools are easier to place and remove. Newest tools do make soloing a lot easier and safer though. I don't feel over armed with 15 or 16 screws on a hard pitch and can likely place them all on a 60m pitch if required. That only leaves 12 screws for leading or one every 5m if you have good ice and never dbl up. Beats 4 or 5 on a 50m lead BITD. Fun conversation! It is raining and snowing here too scary to climb. You are making me work looking this stuff up....don't stop now

Beauteefull!

Geezus, do we really have so little sense of humor here? Bragging? More like a celebration of life.

Seems some were offended by my appointing "style points" for what well could have been an epic in survival. So lets make a list of incidents that should be awarded style points! Doug Scott's crawl down the Orge is a good starting place. Robert's and McCarthy's ascent of the S Face or Denali and the N Face of Huntington another. Robert's and Tackle's ascent of Kennedy. Not the same league but I suspect pretty indelible in Gwain's mind. Gwain's 150' fall and two days of hard climbing on 3 quarts of water and 6 snickers for the two of us. one of mine? Hobbling off the toboggan to my car, driving the 30 min to the emergency room and having the nurse tell me I didn't need to be there if I could walk in. Injuries? Broken back and broken leg. Yours?

No worries, my wife doesn't get my sense of humor either.

Let me be more succinct. I'd rather climb with Ano any day, than climb with a cry baby that has no sense of humor. Living is always good and the priority but enjoying life is right up there as well. Having recently taken a fall that could have easiy killed me, and the resulting 9 months of rehab, I find it easy to make all kinds of funny, to me, comments. Guy takes a 300+ foot screamer that really should have killed him, on a line I just did, and I will celebrate his life by giving some well deserved style points! Call it gallows humor. Or "fuck off", I don't care. No arguement here, just doesn't always work out that way. Given the choice, I'll take a partner with a little sand...even if it is in his shattered ankles. Email is tough but this is getting boring. Ano any words for us in retrospect?

Some interesting comments and comparisons Grant. Couple of thoughts, and no disrespect intended, anyone would be hard pressed to make realistic comparisons of 40 years in ice climbing techniques and tools by starting 4 or 5 years ago. I worked with John Lauchlan, teaching and guiding the winter and spring after he and Jim did Slipstream. That would have been winter of 80/'81. Congdon and Blench were there as well. Cronn and Buhler were consistant partners that winter and spring. All better climbers than I was. John and Dwayne Congdon had attended the RIA meet in Chamonix in the summer of 1980. They did a number of very good routes there including the 3rd ascent of the McIntyre/Colton in very fast time, the Jackson/Shea on the Droites and a hand full of solos by John including the Super Coulior on the Tacul. John and Dwayne were given along with all the attending alpinist a set of Simond tools, a axe and a Chacal. Elzinga is still around you should ask him what they actually did use on Slipstream. But I bet it was Forrest Serac Sabers (over grown Terros with hammer/adze/and a spike on a straight shaft for plunging up the endless snow of Slipstream in the middle of winter) he used to free Nemisis in March of '80. In fact I'd put money on it. Slipstream was done in Dec of '79. The Forrest hammer you show? Maybe, as a third tool if they took it at all. Hard to believe as I never saw John carry a third tool the next winter using the Chacal and Simond axe almost exclusively or on rare occasion the school's Stubia Rupals. Also the WI6 finish on Slipstream that is often stated as "never repeated" might not have been WI6 after all and certainly wasn't for us. Gary and I did some vertical ice at the end of Slipstream but nothing remotely WI6. If John said it was WI6 I have no doubt it was. Just wasn't there the next winter and looking back I never heard John tell any one it was WI6. Nor is that finish listed in Albi's guide. Believe me Slipstream was the topic of conversation more than once, with me pushing for a grade 7 for duration and seriousness and John (as well as James who was climbing as hard as anyone) calling bs. The description I always heard was more like "the summit serac, proved to be quite straight forward" from Chic Scott's, "Pushing the Limits". Just one of the reasons I didn't totally agree with your speculation that the seracs have greatly receeded on Snowdome (or in the area in general) in the past 30 years. We were just happy to get up the thing in a day instead of the 2.5 that the first ascent took. The third ascent, a week after ours by Carlos Buhler and Dick Renshaw had a big flake (we saw it) of the serac come off on one of the upper water fall pitches. Carlos' description of Dick on lead, screaming as the serac came down the gully, shattered and bounced over them is still bone chilling to me. Over coffee afterwards Carlos described to John and I the same finish as we had all done before them. That winter/spring definatly saw the first one day ascents of the uppper pillar on Weeping wall, Polar Circus and obviously Slipstream. By late spring things had changed and there was a new way to look at what we were climbing. John, James, Dwayne and Dave McNab had done Gangapurna while I and others stayed and worked for them at Yam. They came home looking for bigger objectives. By summer I had made the 2nd solo of Edith Cavell behind Robbins (with others following quickly behind me) and John was thinking of soloing Polar Circus. Less than a dozen of us I suspect had done Slipstream, Polar Circus, Nemisis, Bourgeau Left, Upper Pillar on Weeping Wall, Pilsner and Takakkaw. Blanchard and Kevin Doyle were a part of that select group. John died early that winter. Two more buddies, including Gary, were to die climbing or skiing shortly after John. I dropped out of serious alpine climbing soon after and was happy to just climb rock. The mantel soon fell on Blanchard and Dolye and their like in Twight and Randy Radcliff to carry on.

Might well be my background. Detailed (or long winded as you describe it) debriefs are part of my world. Generally taking as much or more time on the debrief as to accomplish the task. The idea behind them is to avoid similar mistakes and offer better ways of dealing with similar situations in the future. I learned a few things worth while for my own climbing from this incident and thinking through it. Having been on the mtn just a few days previous to the accident I don't consider my previous observations of the conditions 2nd hand. YMMV of course.

Self rightious? Now that is funny. Guess you missed: "anyone can fall off" "living through a 300' fall in the alpine is just dumb luck, no matter how much experience you have. Being able to walk out on a badly broken ankle (having done it myself) is admirable but may have caused even more serious injuries. (it did on mine)" or http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/807945/1 I actually do think you get a "reward" for coming up with the mental toughness Anon showed. YMMV Self rightious: rightious, moral, in one's own opinion rightious: acting in a just, upright manner, virtuous I suspect Ano is cringing with every post and wishes this thread would just go away. It is my opinion and from his comments I do think Anon made the right choice. But since Feck has brought up morals lets discusss it further. When I started climbing if you got in trouble you pretty much knew no one was going to get you out, but you, your partner or your friends. Short of the Candian Rockies or Yosemite there are few SAR teams capable of getting into, let alone up a few pitches on Snoqualmie's NW face. Having played that game getting someone out that isn't mobil is another story altogether. If some one knows something different please feel free to correct me here. Others may see climbing and rescues as different today. I don't obviously. Even now most of us know or have heard of the locals who climb stuff like this. Climbers...at least "real" climbers imo, take care of their own when things go bad. You take respnsibility for yourself and everyone around you also takes responsibility for what is required of them. Anon obviously refused help past a extra ski pole from 5 other climbers in there on getting out. On the way out it took them 4hrs from the base of the face to the parking lot...just about how long it took me to walk in the other day. Having some idea of the mobility and response times for a rescue to be organized, obviously they made the best decision. Was it the best decision for Anon's ankles and injuries? Only time will tell. And ya, I still give style points. Ano wins by a mile...well not a mile having held a 150" fall before. That resulted in only minor injuries but we were able to keep climbing for another 24 hrs. "It's all in fun until someone looses an eye, then it becomes a party"

I remember my early trips to Yosemite in the '70s. Nothing new in the descriptions by then. When I first read that piece some time in the late '70 or early '80s my thought was Chouinard had sold out (he'd started making clothes as Patagonia) and was an elitist prick. Never realised it was written in '63. Freakin whiner! It got a lot worse before it ever got better.

Between the Chacal and my current Nomics there are at least seven generation of tools I can easily count and probably a few I can't. A few years ago (more like 10) a buddy of mine was trying to discuss his newest tool purchase with me. My comment was, "a good climber can get up most anything with a decent club and a nail sticking through it." These tools (older yet than the Chacal) were good enough to lead every ice pitch on the 2nd ascent of Slipstream, in 8hrs and 45 min from base of the glacier where we roped up to crawling off the east face on to flat ground, Jan. 18, 1981. Clog Vultures. Makes that comment even more relavant today. My partner, Gary Silver, was climbing with a 55cm Bamboo piolet and a terro hammer. Admittedly only grade 4 ice on Slipstream but I suspect you get the idea. What to hear about some real ice climbing? Take a look here:

You guys are funny, funny in a good way. It is more like a couple of F16 top gun pilots talking to one of the wright Bro.s who can now just barely fly an F16 safely. Marc, when you finally get chance to do something like the upper pillar on Weeping wall, Nemisis or some other long section of near vertical ice you'll find that placing the newest gen of screws is easy and for most a more sane way to climb. Only place I have seen a guy place that many screws and still climb fast was on the center line of Weepeing wall going out through the roof last winter. Looked like he was rock climbing. And it was impressive. Grant? Moderate (or hard) alpine isn't generally the place to climb without an adze, hammer or a spike on your tool for plunging. Yes, people do it now but it is always a compromise. You know that better than most here with the playground you are in. It is obvious the costs if things go badly and you actually need any of the three. No pin placements on Shooting Gallery today? But most everyone will clip the fixed pro won't they? At one time Shooting Gallery, Astroid Alley, A-Strain, Slipstream all had quite a reputation. They are/were mtn routes instead of the crag climbs that they are treated as today. The fixed pro on those routes an M climbing that make hammerless ascents possible wasn't available even just a few years ago. All of those climbs have a totally different reputation today and for good reason. The Nomic, Quark or Fusion for that matter were never originally intended to be alpine tools. They were meant to be ice cragging tools. First time I heard of anyone taking a curved tool (old Cobra) into the Mtns and actually climbing anything was House, Twight and Backes. I am sure others did as well. But the Slovak route (S face of Denali) was something I knew a little about and was still surprised that was a tool they choose. Obviously a good choice now. In the '90s it was a selection that was still pretty out there. Mug, Paul, Brad and I all climbed over the 'shrund on Hunter together '81. We attempted (2nd time) and then backed off the crux of what later became Twight/Backes line "Deprivation". Mugs and Paul went on to complete the "Mooon Flower". But we had similar gear. A Curver axe and a terro hammer fro at least two of us. (Mugs had a Roosterhead which was an American copy of the Terro and he had used the same stuff on Moose's Tooth earlier in the season) My point is, short worked fine in those days.... the tools are about 40/45c, but a hammer and a adze was generally thought required on hard mtn routes. Some of this is my generation (Gordon and me) looking at a jet saying it will never fly without propellers. And you (Jeff Lowe or Jack Roberts among others who kept hard at it) saying, "Hell what is the big deal we been doing this for years." But I have yet roped up with a climber this season for some alpine mixed that hasn't said..."what no pins" in reference to me taking only a set of Nomics for tools. None of these guys are dumbies, all are climbing much harder than I. So while things are changing, let's not try to fool anyone that leashless, hammerless, adzeless and spikeless is the norm anywhere but road side cragging or soloing. Oh and if you are still using leashes....you are obviously no F16 pilot As Mark told me ten years ago...."open your mind". There was originally some arguement about how it would be harder and less safe to use nuts instead of pins and a hammer. And then a generation later how cams couldn't replace a solid nut. And we all know how that turned out. Things are changing!