Dane

With an early start in mid August it is an "easy" walk in and climb the bottom of the CNR to the notch on the 1st day. With pleanty of daylight to spare/eat/get comforatble for the bivy. Took us 8 hrs total car to NR notch (climbing in boots and no hurry) with 5hrs (in running shoes to the base of the west ridge) of those getting to the base of the ridge. In the grand scheme of things on this trip the climbing is pretty short time wise. Climbing in rock shoes and walking in light approach shoes would speed up the approach, climbing and decent a good bit I suspect. One of my old journal entries does mention a "horrible" decent to Ingalls creek and I noted the time from Longs pass to the parking lot. 1.5 hrs. Seemed like 6 at the time. Which is why I mention the West Ridge decent as an alternative . Thanks for the reminder of those vulture size meskeetos! Biggest reason by far to come in on the south side for me. Base, notch or summit bivy, all are pretty cool. Have fun!

Yep that would be my guess..straight shafts and leashes are ripping you, Marc. And you know I am not kidding. The rest is easy. It's the one arm pull ups that are tough to come by. Is there really any reliable WI6 on the Coast? Think you've been busted on that one already by Trainwreck We should get away to the Rockies where I could sic your skinny, finger crimping, one arm pull up ass on some WI6 so I could have a nice, sane, safe and weenie TR And you can meet Trainwreck. I'll even lend you my twins, tools and screws for the trip!

I've done the full N ridge from both sides and frankly prefer coming in from Ingalls. Walk seems easier and love the decent on snow to the start of the ridge. Nice break after all the up hill. But I would never think of camping at Ingalls. Too close to the car and not close enough to the climb. Great approach (Ingalls) if you are doing a C2C shot (either version CNR or short NR version) or going to bivy at the notch on a CNR for a low key trip. Cascadian (long sob) and West ridge are both good decents. West Ridge makes a slower decent but easy and the obvious route as you don't drop off the mtn so far and have to regain the elevation if you cam in from the south. Like everyone has said...go light. It is a long walk no matter how you do it.

I have heard a bunch of whining more than once on how that last pitch into the Triple Couloirs was unprotected, run out, and fairly difficult. Said so myself Count yourself lucky if you got an actual stick in there and found it like this. I'm with Curt on this one. Early season and in bonie, dry conditions Dragontail can get the attention of just about anyone. Late spring conditions you can have some fabulous neve and good, soft ice. Much of what was climbing in Fall can be skied or a bum slide by spring. Good TR on the Gerber/Sink here. FWIW I prefer the G/S over Triple Couloirs when both are in good nic. If for nothing else than the superb alpine ambiance out on the face. At least one other colorful description of the crux corner getting back to TC inside the thread. Either way, some great climbing to be had on Dragontail 12 months of the year! http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/773843/1

For the guys who haven't had a chance to play with the idea? Nothing to do with the swing or stick. I was amazed at how my hang time changed (got longer) by simply opening the finger groove on the pommel a bit (very important for me) and allowing my hand to drop off the end of the tool, sans spike. Not the best pictures and they don't tell the whole story but if you climb cracks or are into Kinesiology/Biomechanics they will tell you a lot just by the angle of the wrist and strength available in the positions of the hand.

Anyone using this stuff and care to comment? Most interested in the pants but any feedback on the two pieces would be useful, TIA. http://www.patagonia.com/web/us/patagonia.go?assetid=45342

Let me be a tiny bit more succinct Alpine climbing is all about conditions.

Bvilsue. I don't think I was correct as to the "four" 70 cm axes. I may be totally off on the alpine hammers as well. I asked Jeff to clarify what they did use for crampons, boots and tools this morning. I'll repost his answer here. I was going off Dave's quote from "Ice World" as well and some old pictures I had seen. But the pictures I was thinking of were of Jeff's later solo and obviously not 70cm axes he was using there but at least one Zero bamboo hammer. Then I found Jeff's picture of Mike Weiss on the 1st ascent in "Ice World" (page 33) on the 2nd pitch of Bridalveil. With some close inspection it clearly shows a long axe with wrist loops stuck in the wall for his left hand and a shorter north wall hammer with a wrist loop in his right hand. to be continued

Julian, I just made up the term "belay sweater" while writing here @ cc.com. My idea of a "belay" anything is an additional layer with a intergal hood to add at the end of a pitch when you are wet from sweat and will cool down rapidly while belaying. So you add the "belay" sweater, jacket or bivy weight outer. What I want that layer to do is keep me warm while stopped and most importantly dry me out when stopped or while climbing. For the use as a "belay" jacket at any weight/insulation thickness down insulation is obviously limited to very cold temps and limited physical levels. So to keep them all straight in my mind I have used the three terms, "sweater", "jacket" and "bivy" to define levels of warmth and amount of insulation. Obviously there are some pieces that will overlap in utility and warmth in each catagory and each person is different. Fatique and your physical condition will change as well and require different levels of insulation at different times. Belay "sweaters and jackets" I will climb in when cold as a second or when conditions dictate that it is cold enough I have to leading. The "Bivy" level are the thickest belay jackets generally not all that fun to climb in as a second and worse yet while leading except in really, really cold conditions (Alaska or high up in Canada winter) and on moderate terrain where you aren't working too hard but make a perfect additon to a light bag or even alone on a sparce bivy. I like the Atom and a buddy has been using his a lot as a belay "sweater" in moderate conditions like low level waterfall cragging in the desert. Maybe the perfect "sweater" there. But I think it is better used as a primary cold weather climbing piece than a belay specific piece. I like it in that position while saving a Compressor hoody as the belay jacket to go over it. Makes a pretty warm system for cold weather climbing. More than the Compressor Hoody could do alone for sure. And 1/2 the weight of the soft shell it replaces. I used that combo (Atom/Compressor) at 0F as a bivy set up with a lwt bag (Vario) and made it through the night and actually got some sleep while in terrible physical condition, starting wet and dehydrated. So the system works But in general I would suggest a pile/shell (or soft shell) combo with a dedicated "belay" jacket. Compressor Hoody (lwt weight) or DAS (warmer level and a cross over from "belay" to "bivy") as a good outer depending on the level of warmth and compressability when stuffed that you require. Steve House's Patagonia video discussing his and Vince Anderson's clothing system on Nanga Parbat is still "cutting edge" and a proven clothing combo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoACZH2N9gE One of the things I just recently became aware of is how effective Primaloft 1 really is. I had wondered why my Comprerssor Hoody was so warm and dried me out so well even when soaked. The answer is Primaloft. I won't be buying another synthetic jacket that isn't Primaloft. The Atom sadly isn't Primaloft and the effectivness shows when you compare it to a similar Primaloft item. All the Patagonia climbing jackets (DAS and Micro Puff) are now, as of this season, as are many of the Eddie Bauer and Mtn Hardware products. Until a few years ago I had only owned and used "Bivy" jackets. I had so seldom used them climbing (but did a lot while sleeping) I really never had a clue how to use a belay jacket correctly. I had owned and used a Patagonia Micro Puff in Polarguard for a while and it worked OK. But it was really the Mtn Hardware Primaloft Compressor that turned me on to just how good a piece designed for climbing and used correctly could be. The "sweater" and the Atom Lt is a perfect example for me offers a few distinct advantages for a shelled insulation piece if you can use and take advatage of them. But the advanatges can also be disadvantages if used in the wrong place, wrong conditions. It stuffs and weights almost nothing. The side vents drop heat while climbing but have to be covered to retain heat in windy conditions or even just cold conditions if you are stopped. Good wind and water resistant though, other than at the vents. Perfect if it is cold and you are working hard and going fast. Sucks if it is cold, you are slow and it is windy out. For my own use the Atom lwt is a very, very specialized piece. Amazing when mated to a MH "monkeyman" or EB "aaw-some" pile jacket with the same side vents. For cold..fast climbing the heat retention and body heat manipulation there is nothing else like it. But if you aren't careful you could freeze your ass off in one

size?

Editted for bad info.....better info coming hopefully Dave's quote from "Ice World" is accurate as far as it goes. Details to follow. At least ..."some" 70cm bamboo axes with leashes, Snargs (unthreaded BTW), strap on crampons in leather boots. Weiss also used that a bamboo 70cm axe Chouinard , leashless, on the 2nd ascent of the Ames Ice Hose.

pm sent

Here is a bit of info on the rotation issue some are having with the new Fusion. A few people coming from a Nomic are finding an uncomfortable "bounce" in the Fusion on ice and the tool being a little scary when pulling bulges. Bill Belcourt at BD made a funny comment about how we as climbers have no institutional memory. I agree. Many of us asked for a spike on the Nomic..and BD gave it to us as the new Fusion. But if you have climbed very long you'll remember how we all choked the end of a shaft to get a better swing on short tools often almost negating/chopping the spike all together for steep ice performance to eliminate bounce and help pulling bulges For some the arc of swing on a new Fusion with spike intact is limited to small side of 180 degrees without changing your grip. While a Nomic can go something like 210 degrees. Don't hold me to the exact numbers but realise one tool can swing a bigger arc than the other. Important for pulling bulges. Very cool the Fusion was designed with a removeable spike. Remove the spike for steep mixed and ice and you'll gain some but not all of the arc back. Most of the bounce will also disappear. With the use of a Dremel grinder (or just some good rough emery paper) you can get an equal amount of swing arc on the new Fusion by rounding the end of the pommel more like the Nomic grip. Might make a big difference for you if you are having small issues with the tool. Also might be worth opening up the trigger slot on the bottom of the grip to again help rotation of the tool in your hand. Pictures should help you visualise what I am talking about and what mods I found useful. BD should have extra pommels available soon if you want a extra pair to cut up. Simple, inexpensive mod, takes just a few minutes with power tools, that might make a big difference for you. Down side is you loose the umbilical attachment on the spike. But that's not a big deal on hard cragging anyway and most will use umbilicals and the spike on longer stuff no matter what small disadvantages on hard technical ground they both might create. Fusion spike in place Fusion with a modified pommel end. Obvious in this photo just how much more rotation you can get in the shaft and how much stronger your grip can still be. Nomic Fusion and Nomic Unmodified Fusion pommel and a chopped up Fusion pommel. Small changes in the shape of the grip can make a huge difference in grip comfort, available rotation on your swing, grip strength & endurance and power in your strike. Unmodified Fusion without spike and a Nomic

None taken, no worries! I know not everyone agrees with my thought process and rightfully so. I remember just how hard money was to come by for gear when I started. Just trying to offer what I think is good advice on how to spend your money wisely if you are just starting. I bought a $25 REI axe my first season and sold it 6 months later for $15 and bought a $35 70 cm bamboo Chouinard. You couldn't climb ice with the first axe but it was great for self arrest! Believe it or not that seemed like a huge amount of money as a 17 year old kid. So that new Chouinard Piolet actually cost me $45...or half a months rent BITD! I didn't have anyone telling me just save another $10 and buy the Chouinard I used that same axe (and still have it) for years. Seems like it was a good investment. (as a usable climbing tool now and the fact they sell on Ebay for $300+ today) I think tools like a Nomic or Cobra will stand the test of time as well *if your goal is climbing technical ice*.

Nice....

I sure don't feel like a cherry picker recommending current tools. I think anyone who wants to get into technical ice would be better served by buying and using newer technology and doing so on a LEASHLESS specific tool. Yes, the price will initially be more. But then you won't be selling them as quickly either. Technical ice starts at WI3 and gets harder. If you don't want to climb 3 or better I wouldn't bother with modern tools. If you can climb 5.10 rock, Grade 6 ice is not a huge reach given some time and the most modern tools and gear.

I gave my last pair of side locks away today....POS design imo. By others use them and are happy with them obviously. Gotta think satisfaction has something to do with boot size.

EastcoastB is right on with that comment, IMO. Here is where I am coming from. I was at first appalled at the thought of taking even a slightly curved tool like the original carbon fiber Cobra on a big mtn route. Questioned Mark Twight's choice of tools in person before he left for the Slovak/CZD on Denali infact with House and Backes. Mark's comment to me was, "open your mind". Took me a few years to actually pry that pea open and really understand some of what he was saying but now I am using Nomics everywhere. Not the best tool on moderate terrain but with an open mind I make it work. North face of Hood or Triple Couloirs (both good technical climbs) can easily be done with curved tools and straight shafts, or even easier done in bad conditions (read hard ice) with more modern tools and bent shafts. One disadvantage of more modern tools and recurved picks is the ability to self arrest. But you learn quickly most stuff even beginners can now climb easily you can't self arrest on anyway. Trick is not falling. My thought is the more secure your tools are the less likely you are to fall.

Curt (Monty Piton) made the point many times of buying a set of the new Cobra for $150 per tool, $300 for the set, earlier this year. A pair of new Cobras just sold for $212 each this morning on Ebay. I've not been so lucky but have bought them for $175 each. I've also gotten Nomics and Quarks *new* for under $200 per tool several times and used Quarks even cheaper. But it has taken some effort looking on Ebay, at 2nd Ascent and watching the online sells @ Moosejaw and Eastern Mountain Sports on line. Eastern Mountain Sports has been my best source for discounted ice tools. If you really think you are going to get into hard technical ice (an have done some hard technical rock) I would save my money, wait till the end of the season and keep track of all the above. Most of us would loan you tools to climb with till you get your own..so waiting won't stop you from climbing. *Lots of older tools that you can climb hard with.* But you have now idea just how much easier it is with a Nomic, new Fusion, Quark/Quark Ergo, newest Cobra, newest Viper, Reactor, DMC Rebel or Simond Anaconda Cup. Everything (I think that covers it) else is just not in the same ball game for technicla water ice. Trying to give you a "best" list and might want to put the Quark Ero and the Reactor as iffy on that list imo. But either can can be had *really* cheap used which would make them attactive to me.

Wondered that myself. Would seem the only answer that makes sense.

I have a pair of bolt on side lock heel pieces that I will not be using. Any one want them for spare parts let me know. I'll mail them out for *free* if you can use them. Send me a PM

Glad someone said it. Right on Marc. Same reason there is a lot of cheap second hand tools out there, most are long obsolete. That includes some really "new" ones. Doesn't mean you can't climb with them and climb hard...but why would you want to? Nothing they will teach you a good modern tool won't teach you faster and with less effort. You can rock climb hard in boots as well but most prefer doing so in a modern rock shoe. Same idea.....way more than you might think.

Cholatse is a nice boot. And everyone's feet are different but the Cholatse is a way wider fit on my foot than any Sportiva.

I thought some info and comments on the heavier styled belay jackets that came up is another thread might be better used here. "I am a belay/bivy jacket fanatic and am really picky about what I use. The XV is the first down jacket I have seen in years that was actually designed as a bivy, really, realy cold weather climbing jacket. Retail is $269. Compare it directly to the FF Front Point @ $429, Wild Things @ $295 ($170 sale) and Arct. Dually @ 499, Norrøna Lyngen $378 when you can find them and no comparison to the new lwt DAS @ $300. I made those comparisons in person today except for the Norrøna Lyngen. Mammut has the Stratus for $$219 which is a good comparison to the old DAS and another best buy. I bought my last Swiss, Egge Delux for $150 in the '80s...and the XV is a better jacket imo. AND that is saying a LOT! In short...GOOD SHIT here for hard, really cold, alpine. Pick and choose though...some of the stuff is below par to other manufactures and price point; some way, way above. At 1/2 price some of it is really a steal imo." "Feathered Friends makes GREAT gear. We own a bunch of it and have for years. But IMO the EB XV stands inspection side by side to the FF Front Point parka and comes out equal if not the better of the two for actual climbing. Did just that last night. Even at the same price? I'd take the XV. But they aren't the same price, FF is $429 and the EB $269. I've looked at a number of really nice belay/Bivy style jackets over the last few days and few are as good. Only the Norrøna Lyngen ($378.,) looks to be as technical a piece as the XV. But I have not laid my hands on one to make a direct comparison. The Mammut hooded Ambler is another comparable down bivy/belay jacket. ($300) Many others should be relagated to shoveling the side walk...in a T shirt 'cuz no way I'd ever climb in one Been awhile since I've seen a decent down jacket I'd want to climb and/or sleep in. So I am really STOKED on the EB XV! What down climbing jackets are made for..winter technical climbing and a open bivy." The Norrona weights in at a claimed 24oz and the EB VX at 34oz FWIW in comparisons off the first post in the thread. Glad you asked as I am learning more about that myself. But long answer. Some Internet discussion going on about that right now. I've not used the new and thought the old one too warm for my normal climbing uses. As did many others. This time around I wanted a warmer jacket for some colder conditions (multiple days out in Canada up high) and might have bought one of the old ones this time around. (and it may turn out to be a mistake that I didn't buy the new one) Most thought the old DAS the "gold standard" of belay jackets with generally rave reviews. Then the thinner "belay/climbing" jackets appeared. Patagonia micro Puff Hoodie and the Mtn Hardware Compressor were two of the early ones. Since then belay/climbing jacket have gotten even lighter..down to sweater weight really. Arcteryx Atom Ltw is a good example but there are a few others out there as well. Many Internet 'purts said Patagonai was going to a lighter weight DAS so you could climb better in it and the extra warmth wasn't required. Sounded reasonable to me. From a phone call to Patagonia this morning it turns out Patagonia and its designers had no intention of making the DAS lighter. What they were looking for was a better insulation. The old DAS used Polarguard 3D. The new DAS uses Primaloft I. I think I know just how effecient Primaloft 1 is by comparing the Mtn Hardware Compressor (PL1) to the Patagonia Mirco Puff Hoody (PG3D) in use. Compressor is way warmer than it has any right to be given it's thickness and realtive compressability. The previous pictures of Collin Haley on Hunter in a new DAS first turned on the light bulb for me. His partner is using the Norrona, down/ synthetic high bred I mentioned above on that climb. So I started asking more questions. After my phone call to Patagonia I just sent out a couple of emails this morning asking guys I trust that have used both old and new DAS their input. I'll post the input. But my take after an education this morning is the new DAS should be even better (lighter, easier to compact into a smaller package and just as warm or maybe even warmer) than the old DAS as a belay jacket. Old DAS insulation 200 in the body 160 in the arms POLARGUARD 3D 7 denier This is continuous filament, meaning it is manufactured in a singe strand that when spun together forms the loft (up to 8,000km long). The main feature of 3D is that is has a hollow cored fibre that has a triangular cross section, making it both warmer than a straight solid fibre and more resistant to compression, meaning it will maintain its loft even with a lot of hard abuse. The fibres are very fine (14 microns) and slick, meaning it’s soft and very compressible - perhaps not as compressible as other fills but this translates into a longer loft life. New DAS insulation 170 in the body and 130 in the arms PRIMALOFT PL1 sub 1 denier This is an ultra fine short filament (15 microns) fibre, meaning that instead of having a single strand you’ve got something far more like down (seven microns) with a vast number of individual fibres being stabilized by a thermally bonded scrim. Primaloft was originally designed for the US army as a viable alternative to down, being very warm (warmer than it looks, in fact) and compressible and it is perhaps the nearest we’ve got to man-made down so far. The individual fibres have a special water-resistant coating giving the fill a very high water resistance, absorbing very little moisture and drying fast. The down side of the fill’s down-like qualities is that it is slightly more affected by repeated compression - although in clothing this isn’t as big a factor as in sleeping bags. I was able to ask Steve House his thoughts on the difference between the old DAS and the new DAS today. His reply below:

DAS was always the warmer of the two, between Compressor Hoody and DAS in any version. Better comparison is Compressor and the Micro Puff now that they are both using Primaloft as of this year.