Dane

Again I think the point is missed. I like a hut as much as the next guy, and trams and bolted rap lines and well marked trails. May be even more than the next guys as it all gets harder for me physically. But do we choose to make it easier for us at the moment or preserve it as best we can for someone else in the future? I dumb it down to this example for myself. 20 years ago I spotted a awesome line on a short, slightly over hanging wall of beautiful granite. I worked the moves on a TR...I could actually do a few of them in time. But in the 50m of climbing a few places were just beyond my skill or what I figured would ever be my skill. A natural line that could have been enhanced (read chipped) with little fanfare and no one would ever notice. But even chipped the climb would still have been within a letter grade or two of what I was capable of climbing for me to get up it. So I intentionally decided to leave it to someone else. The FA had lost it's priority. The route beccame more important to me. Imagine my dissappointment to come back 10 years later and find the same line climbed and the same connectinng holds chipped....and the climbing at no more than a letter grade or two above what the FA party was capable of at the time? And sadly the FA climber is now capable of climbing not just a few letter grades harder now but at least a full grade may be two plus several letter grades harder that his chipped route. The reason I tell this story is I think we need to think and act long term. And I wasn't intentionally when I walked away from that wall, I just figured there would always be someone better than me that wouldn't have to. But no one got the chance. We need to think about what we do and how it will impact the next generation and several after that. I think the world we live in is what we make of it. That wall could have been one of the first 5.14s or harder in Washington. One that Rudi's 12 year old kid could have flashed, instead it is just one of many chipped 5.12s of little consequence. No matter our differing thoughts on the subject it is a good conversation to be having.

I see only one end result from this conversation...extremely limited human access and a bigger fee management system. I don't think RNP does a very good job. More fees but not so sure of what services I get for those fees and sure don't like the paper work you have to go through to enjoy the park. My point on Vantage is it is over run by people. The resulting human waste and environmental impact has been to date, uncontroled and devastating. The Enchantments are a good example of how limited access has "saved" that area. As DPSmith points out "saved" is an interesting term at Colchuck. Not that I personally like the permit system because I don't like asking permission to go to the mtns. But I aint the King and I'm not thrilled about that either. I think the point is missed. Europe has no wilderness left. We do. I don't think the Euro model is a good one to copy. I would rather have limited access than destroy what little wild resources we do have. Adding huts and marked trails can be good things for people but more than likely it is just a way to direct traffic to one area and trash it, to save some place else already long over used and abused. Anyone ever thought of just not trashing the place first time around......and cleaning up what has been done while we are there? The Alberta hut is a fairly common destination now. I suspect the traffic is more than 5 fold into Alberta and the "hole" of N. Twin and Columbia. But the hike was a lot more serious and there was less travel back there when getting over Wooley Shoulder was a full day's walk on your own in and out. Back to Vantage? We can't seem to solve a small problem like that...in an incredibly fragile eco system. Why not? If you saw Vantage through my eyes and the past 30 years you would be truely shocked and worse, saddened to see what we as climbers (and only climbers) have done there. Take an even smaller example. Dishman in Spokane. Once a beatiful little piece of rock and scenery in the middle of town. Then it got popular with the ever growing herd of ecologically uncaring climbers and literally became a outdoor rock gym, with bolt on holds and all. I don't think the issue is, "lower environmental impact by limiting areas of travel". I think the real issue is the need to lessen the human traffic. And more importantly get those that do use the environment as our play ground, to take care of it better. We are simply "loving it to death". And once trashed..rehab is generally the last thing done if it is ever done.. From what I have seen generally it is....left at status quo.....and you (the organizations involved) move on. For my own pleasure I'd like to see a couple of huts in the Enchantments and bolted rap lines on DT. But I don't think either would be a sound choice for future generations to enjoy the Enchantments as we have. There in lies the rub. Should we make that choice for them or lower the impact so they get a chance to have a similar experience to ours 50 or 100 years from now? I've climbed in Europe. Going back for a couple of months this winter again. Nothing like Chamonix in the world and I love it for what it is. But if you asked me to choose Chamonix or the Enchantments as our legacy I'd want it to be the Enchantments. We can still make that choice. It was lost long ago in Europe.

Ha, ha We've both been around awhile Don. I have to think that Piggot's Route (V,6) in 1960 was just about as hard physically and way harder mentally than the Hurting is by today's standards. Certainly less folks capable of climbing at that standard in 1960. Straight shafted axes, many times 10 point crampons even then and generally wool clothing and terrible gear and ropes. I started "ice" climbing in the late '60s before I got out of high school. And figured I was a real "ice climber" by the early '70s. But it was a good long time before I knew anyone that could climb Canadian V's and then only after Terrordactyls arrived in the US/Canada. "Scottish Winter Grades: These apply to ice and mixed conditions and are used primarily by climbers familiar with Scottish conditions. Roman numerals are the overall grades, while Arabic numbers are the technical grade of the hardest section. Scottish technical ratings are approximately 1 generous numeral higher than equivalent Water Ice or M-grades. Technical grade 5 is relatively straightforward, 6 is somewhat technical mixed climbing, and 7 and 8 are much more intricate, including harder snowed-up rock. The current range is 4-9. A complete grade is expressed as VI,8. I: Snow gullies and easy ridges. II: Steep snow where two ice tools may be required but technical difficulties are short. Possible difficult cornice exit. III: Mixed ascents of moderate rock routes; icy gullies; sustained buttresses. IV: Steep ice with short vertical steps or long pitches up to 70º, or mixed routes requiring advanced techniques. V: Sustained ice to 80º or mixed climbs with linked hard moves. Climbs are difficult, sustained, and/or serious. VI: Vertical ice and highly technical mixed routes. Grade VI and above routes have exceptional overall difficulties. VII:Multi-pitch routes with long sections of vertical or thin ice, or mixed routes with lots of highly technical climbing. VIII-IX: The hardest routes in Scotland. Canadian Winter." Well sorted kit for '75. On a IV 4, (or IV 5 depending on who you talk to) which was pleanty steep in the day. Terrodactyls, Dachstein mitts, rigid SMC crampons, Whillians harness and leather single boots in a Peter Carman Super gaitor.

I suspect he was talking about the other Glenwood. Colorado hardman classic bitd! Good enough to make the cover shot of Climbing Magazine.

And you think it is hard now? http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/our-history.html

cross fit it aint the arrow, it is the indian

Yep, look at Europe. Route names painted on the cliffs, cement cairns and red numbered paint marks to get you to the hut or on the trail. Yea, look to Europe for climbers that have no clue in a wilderness setting or how to follow a trail. How about we clean up our own shit and pick up after others no so inclined and actually stay on the trails that are there and don't cut the switch backs on the way down. Sure areas need management. Look at Vantage. A few friends and I climbed there for years....with little impact. Then a little word of mouth at a WSU Alpine Club slide show and shortly there after all the asses showed up. It was a beautiful desert environment, now it is a trash heap. Ya, we do need managment but how about we start with something simple like the issues @ Vantage.

Matrix/Quantum Tech are both sweet tools. A few down sides, like the problematic head and pick replacement. But no one argues how well they climb.

Easy to peal off the rubber and have a decent tool. "The original Chouinard or Black Diamond X-15 Axes with the plain carbon fiber/fiberglass over aluminum shafts .... no bonded rubber or BRS as they were known." Same carbon fiber aluminum shaft under the rubber. I still have a couple of the axes. The original curved picks are a bit hard to come by these days.

Polar Cirus, Weeeping Wall, Curtain Call, Snivelling gully ect. All of which I have also done on a 45m rope. Way easier to carry lwt twins these days. V threads can make raps any length you want. If there is ice of course. 45M ropes were the standard for years. Then 50m and now 60m. 45m ropes are great to climb on and carry. Nothing shorter beats a 70m rap. Always a trade off. Climb where others do and the raps are likely to be fixed (v threads or rock) and you end up short without a 60m rope today generally. If you are on routes that require full length raps, but few truly do. pricing? Try justropes.com I have been happy with there prices....sale prices are good. If you are only going to have ONE rope....do yourself a favor and buy a 60 no matter what it is.

One day ascent of Liberty Crack in '73. Interupted by a 150' fall onto a hip belay from almost exactly this same position Summit bivy, Alaska May '76. Snowed off a 5.11 FA in the '80s Back to finish it later A decent solo in '88 But who cares about BITD This is from 3 days ago. Life is very, very good! Get out and rock! End of the guiding season...mid '80s...and a belated toast to all of you! This thread got me so fired up this morning I am now singing, "I am too sexy for my pants, I am too sexy for my ants, I am too sexy for..what my dog? .... and on and on No wonder i climb, i'm truly nuts...thanks for the help here!

60m 7.7mm Beal ice twin. I like them a lot for ice and alpine. Buy one and you have a good 30m alpine set up. If you like it buy the 2nd. I wouldn't suggest going back to a 50m rope. Simply because most everything that is fixed will be a 60 these days.

Canmore got 10cm of snow today but there was nothing on the ground Sunday night when we left. Cold there now. Road in was clear and dry to the parking lot.

This is very cool mixed. http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/ghost.html

Funny, I have been on the Internet for awhile. Only three posters I ignore. Two of them were here on cc.com Kevin was one that I just recently unblocked after he noticed it. Not a bad guy just too much of an annoying buzz at times like Colin. Less static would be good..but sometimes it is funny...no so much in a serious conversation about being a total tool. This place is what YOU make of it.

Withering Heights, the Ghost, 11/14/10 and Daniel pulling the bulge on the left at half height, 30m+ off the deck.

Fat enough in the Ghost already 11/14/10. Tiny helmet head on the rope line from 60m off the ground on a nice plumb line of soft water ice.

details here: http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/scarpa-phantom-ultra-and-scarpa-phantom.html

You shit'in me right? My birthday lasts a month..give or take. You never know when you'll have another. Or if. Make the most of it. Sobo is good for at least that. Besides ya gotta have a little hair of the dog after the multi day party winds down. Sobo you still breathing?

http://www.colinbartholomew.com/ Such a nice presentation. Good looking kid...even Sobo would like you Colin. We'd have to watch that. How does it go from that reality and some nice pictures and climbs to your CC.com persona And me on the other hand so nice, gentele and helpful here and such a knuckle dragger thug in real life? Hard to fathom how the internet changes someone.

Speaking of Leto...can you believe Carlos Buhler has never read Dune.... I was shocked. Appauled really. Must be one of the many reasons why I never climbed anything hard.

For full disclosure...it is my understanding this specific topic was a fairly long private message that was passed around several weeks ago between moderators. I don't think the moderators have any reason to apologize. But if people don't listen..some times it just takes more voices. It that didn't work....not a lot of recourse left in a civil society if you want to stay civil. No doubt and if he was 17 I'd cut him a bunch more slack but he's in his mid 20s at least. Or if the level of spray had lessened in the last year..it hasn't. But gotten worse. I have sox that have climbed more and they talk less. Time to grow up a bit on the Internet. Obviously by the last post it isn't happening very quickly fro such a "sharp" guy. BTW I thought Josh's duct tape sox brilliant. Smart kid and he writes well. Photo skills are way above average. Hard not to like Josh even as a goof ball kid. Reminds me of...me..though likely smarter, stronger and tougher, sunburned face and all Josh rocks!

Happy BD! Couldn't live without you bro

Jeezus Ivan I am a simple guy. Every thing goes over my head. I had to look up "interlocutor". Guess we shoud be gentle to our delicate little snow flakes Revisions? Been easier to simply quote from the Machine, "with Alex it isn't a lot of bla, bla, bla," Stay excited. Stay alive. Spray less, climb more.

After Doug asked I got curious and have been climbing in a pair of BD Seracs some this fall. They do weight in around a half .oz per crampon more than the Sabertooth. Here are my comments for what they are worth: http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/black-diamond-serac-crampon.html