DanO

Try to find a more experienced climber to show you the ropes if you can, Read every thing you can find on how to climb and climbing stories. Read the trip reports, look at what other climbers are wearing. Go only in good weather forecasts, the mountain, ANY mountain is king in bad weather. You must do the alpine start, this is up and going by 2am at least on most big mountains on summit day. The reason being is firm snow is safe snow and cold snow and ice means less stuff falling on your head, this gives you plenty of extra daylight time and time to get down before the snow gets super soft and things start to fall on your head. Start out small, do lesser mountains, get a partner. First day out or trip out a new person should not climb a mountain look at what the guide services do. They teach the clients how to tie together, to walk on steeper ice using french technique, How to extract out of a crevase, do you have a set of prussiks yet in order to self extract out of a cravase? have your practice this skill yet? Have you got on a steep snow hill with a safe run out and practice self arrest? You can self arrest with a ice axe, with a ski pole(place the pole in a arm pit and roll your weight on it) and with your hands and body alone, cup your hands at your face , dig in elbows and toes. Should practice all three ways of self arrest from all types of fall down positions and should be able to run and jump into a slide and then go into a self arrest. Be careful on any Glassade, no crampons and the way to stop is to roll on your belly and go into self arrest if you can't slow down other wise. (The cute dig the shaft of the ice axe photo does not work if you really get going.) Understand, two big dangers of snow. One is steep ice, the other is snow melted out to consistency of a soft ice slerpy. On ice it is hard to get your ice axe pick and front crampon toes in to the ice fast enough, the key is to act quick to self arrest. In soft slerpy snow, the key is to act quickly and get your toes in hard and fast. Best to keep your shaft end of your ice axe in deep at all times in any steep or questionable snow, this is your first self belay. On the rope team, most experienced person in front going up, in the rear going down. Why? If going up the lead guy falls and slides past the guy past him, most likely, both will fall. If going down the rear guy falls the guy in front most certainly can't hold them. Sometimes solo is better than being roped up, but on a glacier or placing pro you rope up. A lot of people feel better roped up, but it can be a false sense of security. You want the strongest person in the position of where they can't afford to fall and who is good at quick self arrest. (Keep no slack in the rope between climbers.) Start small and build up, there are countless climbs fun to do, books in the climbing shops. Dan

After a little thought, a few more things about using a hole in the rock to melt water. Your looking for a hole that will make a little pool of water, the hole made of pure rock, most any size hole will work. Clean out your hole using snow or whatever before usage. Then pack with snow or ice, then put in clean heated rocks into that, as clean as you can with a rock out of a fire. Use rocks that are dry to heat up as wet rocks can blow up from internal water turning to steam. You can use two sticks to move rocks,a metal snow shovel would be great or anything else that may work, synthetic gloves or mitts most likely will melt if used. You most likely know all of this stuff, I posted for everyone. Dan

I have a little metal water bottle that I could use to melt water into if I bring it on trips, or one could bring a metal Ti cup for making water, of course depends on being able to get to tree line and finding or making dry wood for fire. Other than this a common way to make water is to use hole in a rock, pack snow into it and put heated rocks into that, will make a pool of melted snow water, you can also cook bugs and stuff inside that. Another trick but may damage your shell clothing is pack snow into a shell jacket and put a rock in there then put a heated rock on top of that rock to melt snow into water using your jacket or helmet etc as a water holder. I am into the survival stuff as a extra hobby. Dan

Did you guys make water using the fire? Just curious. Dan

I have not tried it on black diamond ski runs, so I don't know how it work in that steep of angle. It is more useful if your moving slow and slip and then go into self arrest position. It is just another skill in your tool box, if I was going to ski on a really steep hill. I would certainly practice it and try to figure out the limits of this self arrest method. I have also read where the whippet style of handles for self arrest have their limitations. I have went out and ran down a steep section jumped and landed and then moved into self arrest position with the ski pole in my arm pit, pretty steep hill, I would think in black diamond range of steepness, but not sure. It worked for me, it won't work for ice or really hard crusty snow. Carefully note this, this method allows you to use your ski edges to dig in as your digging in with your ski pole. I can't imagine that being as easy with a ice axe or whippet tools, right??????? If you get a chance try it out. Many people stow the ice axe and use ski poles a lot and this skill can be helpful, as in save your butt. One climber I know carries a ski pole in one hand and a ice axe in the other in mixed terrain, that seems to work pretty well for hiking. Dan

I hear you guys and understand exactly and agree, but find it interesting that in the UK they often intend to go out and climb in wet conditions. http://www.scotclimb.org.uk/intherain.shtml I find the buffalo system interesting, as it is made to be in the wet environment and deals with it pretty well. http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/Buffalo_Your_Stories.htm I got a lot of new good information from everyone. Thanks Dan

I have been wanting to get into back country skiing, plan to in the future and though I will never ski at this level I learned a lot from this, thanks. Dan

700 meters? Wow.

I send a little prayer now and then for his eyes to see again. I myself from reading this accident determine again to pick the routes that I can place a lot of good pro, at least when cragging. Also, it is my habit to always wear a helmet and chest harness while on lead, I also try to practice down climbing every day I am on top rope. The advantage of the chest harness that hopefully you will stay upright so your legs take the impact. I am reminded to push myself, but in a way that I can look for climbs that will take plenty of protection on lead. Of course in alpine you may not have that option, but hopefully in locations with less pro, it will have a lower climbing grade. Always some risk in climbing, Pulling for you Paul.

Here is a situation, even if your fairly dry on the inside, your shell gear is(could be) totally soaked, You can take it off and lay it aside when settled into camp. But it stays wet all night may even freeze if it gets cold enough, this kind of thing happens to all of us. Or you can wear it inside of your sleeping bag and try to dry it out overnight. Not a pleasant thought in itself. So you have two unpleasant options. It would be nice to have inexpensive gear that you could dry out by evaporation by moving round or inside a sleeping bag. This is the way Buffalo gear seems to be designed to work, but I have zero experience with it. A little expensive for me to experiment with it, so thinking of alternatives. I have a Marmot hard shell jacket that is nice it is of the older design and has a lot of fabric on the inside that if wet would be a total bear to dry inside a sleeping bag I suspect. Maybe treating everything with waterproof wash would help greatly. Dan

I guess my experience is different I usually get mostly wet after a few hours of hard rain even with a hard shell. From sweating and from the rain, it slowly seeps in everywhere. I pretty much assumed this is a common experience? Wet snow and rain is a tough combination as well. A hard shell or soft shell does not really breath if the outer skin is coated with water. I do find that pit zips help and having plenty of air moving around helps. I guess it depends on conditions, a mild rain is not so hard to deal with and you can stay relatively dry in this situation. Wool is a tough one to figure out, it does dry slowly compared to many synthetics, but it is recommended for wet situations(old school?). Drying slower can help as it won't chill you as much as polyester fabric from rapid drying(rare problem), but it also is much harder to dry out inside your sleeping bag, wool socks and gloves almost impossible to dry out overnight. I am wondering how wool would do once treated with a waterproof wash, if that would make it much better or not? I have not seen any information on this. I have and like Merino wool, a super thin merino wool base layer does not seem harmful, but the wool gloves and socks that I have need to be treated or replaced. I also have a few more heavy Merino wool Sweaters that I carry from time to time, I guess I can treat or replace, I already have polyester fleece zipper shirts. Also a few of those polypropylene military shirts. Dan

Thanks for the replies this helps a lot. It seems that your going to get wet no matter what and the best you can do is manage that condition stay warm and get dried out if you can in camp or when the rain stops. I don't really plan to climb in wet weather, but would like to have the kit for it if needed, also I am part of SAR. Dan

http://www.psychovertical.com/?thebestsoftshell I found this article.

I am just wondering what other guys do for cascades wet weather situations. Like for if your caught out for several days in the rain? Primaloft sleeping bags? I know about synthetics and merino wools and so on, but what works best to get dried out quickly? Wool is warm wet, but dries slowly. Hard shells may protect from weather for awhile, but after a few hours you most likely get wet and then it is harder to dry out than the more breathable shells? I like the idea of the buffalo system, but seems expensive to me to just try out, of course all high end gear is expensive. The full on climbing shirt may too warm for most of the season in the cascades. http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/Products_main.htm I am wondering if any have a system to get dry or do you just get wet and suffer on? Any try the nikwax products with success? Maybe on wool? Dan

A cheaper pair of glacier glasses is number 5 welding lenses on a pair of construction sun glass frames. You can find these in welding shops. Works Ok, but don't know about many days on the mountain on the longer trips. Dan

http://www.backpacker.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?act=Print;f=832107219;t=9991120946 Here is a link with a discussion about the Scarp tents if any is interested.

http://www.backpacker.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?act=Print;f=832107219;t=9991120946 Here is a link with a discussion about the Scarp tents if any is interested.

Hilleberg Akto, and big agnes seedhouse SL2, Even though the Akto is a one person tent, I cut pads to fit the whole bottom of the tent and the wife and I can fit in for a night or two. Can't beat it for us, but not roomy enough unless your a couple, maybe two small guys? I have not used any of the henry shire tents, there is a price to pay for being really lightweight,, at a good size. Maybe it would have done better with the lining? Realistically, when going out on purpose in really bad weather a more heavy, maybe less roomy tent would be the better choice? So on second thought, this could work for some mountaineering, but not when expecting the worst weather. I have found Sil nylon to be really strong, any tears? Scarp2 tent is big, I think the guys over 6 feet could use it and have a light tent. Thanks for the real life report. By the way I was out in the seedhouse 2 for a heavy overnight rain and slowly we got soaked the next day. The tent is small and the sleeping bags were against the sides and slowly the water seeped in and got in when we moved in and out of the tent. Also our clothes brought in the water and so on. I have found in general that the larger the tent the dryer, as you can keep clothing and gear and sleeping bags from the walls. I don't fault the tent, it is what it is , a light weight tent , small with the thin strong material. I would not want to be in any kind of light tent like this for long time in bad weather. The Akto would be a better choice, but even smaller. I would trust the Seedhouse in a pretty good storm, but not full on winter storm. It is what it is.

http://www.tarptent.com/productsheets/SCARP2.pdf http://www.tarptent.com/scarp2.html MADE IN THE USA! I would have gotten this tent rather than my last two tents if I had known about it or it existed.

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/57090/how-to-self-arrest-head-first A link showing how to self arrest with ski poles, basically you put the pole inside of your armpit and put all your weight into it. Will not work on ice, actually works pretty well on somewhat steep snow, be sure to practice. You may be able to dig in one boot toe with the snow pole self arrest method. You can self arrest with your body alone if you use cupped hands at your face, dig in cupped hands and elbows and dig in toes hard, works on soft snow pretty well. I thought I would throw this in the thread for those who would like to use ski poles and don't know how to self arrest with them. Practice!, I try to do so once a year. By the way you do not have to put your left hand all the way at the top of the pole, if the pole is too long it works well by grabbing the pole down lower around the shaft.

Go to all the climbing stores and try on all the boots, buy what fits the best, REI has great return policy if your a member, you can bring them in a month later if they are trashing your feet for a exchange. Dan

I will send a prayer for him. And I don't pray that much. Dan

Went to Bellingham YMCA climbing gym this sat, day pass is 7 bucks a day, a option for bad weather days. Dan

I have just recently started taking oil supplements for my knee and having positive results. So just a reminder or a heads up check out oil supplements for injury recovery. Borage, Flax, Primrose, these are the big three to try out. There are some mixtures of the three that said to be better. Check out at the heath stores and good luck. Can make a real difference in all kinds of joint injuries. Dan

I think I would be interested as well, maybe my wife also. We climb a lot year around. I find the best training for climbing, is climbing, even rock climbing with hiking etc translates well. Shoot for some day trips or weekend trips. I also want to do Whitehorse this spring and a lot of other climbs. Dan