billcoe

True dat Kev. I think all of us agree that crafting a line that others will find of value is a consideration. No matter if it's JH trad'ing Menopause, that's a consideration. If it's a knob route with no cracks, it's a consideration as well. What do we owe those that follow? What is value? Do we owe them anything? Nothing? Adventure? Safety? Tough and complex choices much of it based on what we each bring to the party from our own life experience and attitudes.

I'm with you on all but one point, but having hand drilled on lead I can assure you there will be LESS, not MORE bolts on most ground up routes. The bolts will need to be replaced sooner though. Around here on basalt, hand drilled bolts often are on the kind of stances where you will snap an ankle if you fall from above it. On granite, a stance will often be a little swell or dish, on basalt, it's usually a ledge of some sort. I think it should be totally an area dependent discussion. Smith Rocks is different than Index and Beacon and the bolting traditions have evolved in the communities differently for reasons that are grounded in a true reality.

Michael Lane from Omega Pacific says on RC.Noob that they will be adding info to the instruction sheet and are intending to beef up or change the material on the pins....but it doesn't appear to be the issue here at all.....Unless making the pins more malleable might lead to pin deformation instead of the actual cam breaking on those angled placements.

Glad to hear you're over that. I doubt you got flack from anyone who's opinion matters to you. I think some posts got deleted, can't figure out why I deleted my stuff from todays viewpoint.....hmmm. SIGH, LINK - LIKE WE NEED ANOTHER OZONE THREAD:-)

I'm looking for a Video I posted a while ago and keep seeing this kind of thread. deja Vue all over again!!!!

Deja Vue moment.

Great and easy are two different things JH. And no one strays onto this climb. You lower off it 20 feet back from where you start. One does not start up it without having some years under there belt as a climber, guide book or not. That was sarcasm Kev, coming over from the Reasonable Richard bolt discourse you started in spray. Of course this is an obvious roof. _________________________________________________________________ So how would one get the cam head out? Could the thing be sawed out? I heard of someone doing that to a Camalot once, but I think it was much bigger so it would be easier to get in to it. For the record, I don't have time to head up and work on a route that's over my head anyway so I'm out, but I'm just curious. I would think that getting in a good position (assuming the good placement is now useless) work on it might be the crux. Could you sling it around the back of the cam lobes and funkness it out? ______________________________________________________________ Doug, you are right, as always. I think I wound up saying F* it and deleting the thing off the site.

Bill any idea where one can read about the Metolius tests? In general I agree that most of what climbers do is "faith" based; however, the 5% failure rate seems very high. you're so needy..... Peter, that was a Richard Goldstone quote (the Gunks climber/mathematician) I copied and pasted up there. I do remember that myself and in my poor memory I think it might have been in an interview with Doug Phillips. I'm thinking one of the climbing mags. The rest of the story which got seared into my brain, and the important lesson for us, is that they recommended just giving each of our cam placements a slight tug, essentially to set it/confirm it's good.

Hola John!! Those guys videoed Kelton leading the FA on that thing and he made it look like a 5.7 the kid was so smooth. It was a real good video too, and interestingly I got flack for sharing it on CC.com. You guys might do a search, it was good stuff. I guess it's OK to post some Anal fixation band video or monkeys clanging symbols, Pam Anderson pictures are fine too but interestingly any actual climbing. Say for example a super nice and strong kid pulling a sick wicked roof on gear first ascent is out of the question:-(

Maybe you should run it by the "Fixed Alien and/or bolt committee"? Here: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/896687/20/Sport_vs_Trad Of course that's a joke if you clicked that link at all. That is actually what hell will be like when we die. ps, Dustins original email to me said this: "Angle of the Dangle (12c). Draws, Small TCUs/Ball Nuts. A unique and exciting project! From right side of cave, navigate your way up to large roof crack. Punch in bomb-proof gear!! Layout, jam, then crank past the cruxy lip. Keep your composure and finish on the bolted headwall (optional piton). Prep. M. Seidenschmid / Prep & FFA Kelton Rappleyea 9.25.07" Don't know what wound up in the book. Ask Dustin, Kelton and Martin about a bolt. That kid Kelton sure seems like a great guy. PM me if you need an email address.

Which part Andrew?

Ok, who's read some great books lately? I have 3/4 I'll toss out to all which I really enjoyed. The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire 1936 - 1945 (Hardcover) by John Toland http://www.amazon.com/Rising-Sun-Decline-Japanese-Empire/dp/B000GKVNSM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250175481&sr=1-1 It's a 2 book set, you can get both hardcovers for a pittance, but make sure you get both. World War 2 from a Japanese Perspective. If you thought that The Guns of August was a great book, this is the ww2 equivalent. Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001 (Hardcover) http://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Wars-Afghanistan-Invasion-September/dp/B001RNI20E/ref=pd_sim_b_1 I loved this book until the very end. Its an in depth look of how America projects (or doesn't project) our power into the far corners of the world and the multitude of players and how they play in Afghanistan. It ends much like a car hitting a brick wall though....suddenly and predictably, basically this great work just hits the end of the timeline and the author stops talking.... The Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money, & Power by Daniel Yergin The oil bonanza and Americas economic rise are detailed. Starting on Lenin's Tomb - The Last Days of the Soviet Empire and it looks to be as good as these. http://www.amazon.com/Lenins-Tomb-Last-Soviet-Empire/dp/0670852368/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250176127&sr=1-3 The NKVD/KGB files got popped open when Gorbachav took office and the world was flipped upside down for the old Soviet Union. The true version of Orwells 1984...the horror was real and deep. If you've read One Live in the Day of Ivan Denisovitch by Solzhenitsyn, this is the companion work of how that actually occurred. I'm 2 chapters in and it's very very well written.

This would have worked here as well. I think you may have a multi-purpose one here Hoss.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090812/ap_on_fe_st/us_odd_otter_attack_5 he got some 'splaining to do. "DRUMMOND, Wis. – An Austrian woman on vacation in Wisconsin is getting rabies shots after she said she was bitten by otters while swimming in a lake. Brigitte France, 51, told the Duluth News Tribune that she was swimming on Lake Owen near Drummond last Wednesday when three otters suddenly appeared. Feeling concerned, she swam to shore. Just as she got there, she said, "there they were — one on the right leg and one on the left leg." She said they swam off when she shook her legs, but not before biting her eight or nine times. Although France said the bites didn't hurt much, she did go to a hospital, where doctors started a series of rabies shots.... "

Like Off said: I just added a bolt to a route (the only bolt in 2 pitches). There is what appears to be a perfect finger crack 20 feet up. Pounding on the right hand side of the "crack" gets a hollow feeling and you realize that this is a flake. Not loose, but a flake. It forms the right side of a perfect crack and works soooo sooo sweet as a finger lock and a perfect yellow alien placement. However, a fall on a cam in that "perfect finger crack" would force the flake to move. If the flake pulled off, it would land and undoubtedly kill the belayer directly below. The belay location is on a steep hillside with a small stance, so the belayer can't chose to be elsewhere. Perhaps worse, the perfect fingerlocks would disappear. The bolt was placed before the 3nd ascent when a more experienced climber than I (I've been climbing 37 years) layed out to me this very scenario which I had been thinking. In a picture though, it would look like a bolt stuck near a perfect crack....well, it is a perfect crack and fingerlock. The bolt on the super solid main wall to the left will save the belayers life AND preserve a great fingerlock at some future point. An accident in this area, as it is remote and no cell phone coverage, would be a disaster on many levels, not the least of which would be the perfect fingerlocks disappearing. The grade is 5.7, you and I can pull it in the dark, hungover, with our eyes closed, but some beginner unquestionably will show up and fall on a cam in that alleged crack at some point. Maybe you or I would be belaying them? So you are all welcome. Taaaa Daaaa ! There is nothing wrong with chopping bolts next to cracks that take good gear in my mind. Chop chop if you know the route, the history, and the area and it's just a convineance bolt. How many bolts have you and Don chopped in real life Pope?

Won't disagree at all with the how thing you mention. There is an "official" process and it wasn't followed. I heard about it after the fact and frankly it seemed like a great place for it although perhaps Raindawg wouldn't approve of it. Having already watched 3 people die on gear falls, speaking for myself only, I'm not interested in going to that dark place with that whole, brains and gore on my favorite climb, blood pouring out of smashed skulls like a wide open water faucet, failed mouth to mouth/CPR while the loved ones are crying and wailing right there thing again anytime soon. I'm not advocating making for "safer" climbing, because most accidents are caused by mental lapses and you CANNOT bolt your way to safety, as evidenced by the accidents on bolted routes. I'd only be advocating for using our brains and common sense, like was done in this case and then a bolt was added. He took it out, that makes the net effect zero as it balances. End of story. I challenge you to either find the placement or climb the route. As I'm still feeling soiled about the other bolt thread, I'm bowing out of this one as well. Asked and answered. Got any new Pam Anderson pics now? ps, I got a few laps in before it started raining today!

I want to climb that route right now. damn that's sweet looking Off.

Here's the hexes (#7, 8 and 9?) jangling below. FA of the Plum. I'll be climbing with these shoes this afternoon. Best $60 Euros I spent in 1997 I think. 4th-5th resole now?

OMG! I've been waiting for Kevbone to show up with his Pamela Anderson copius cleavage pic as after all the title thread is "The perfect rack!", but your pic is so much better OFF!!!! My fat folds at work on Knob Job in the valley. Steve Schneider showed up and did it next, pretty much rest for rest, piece for piece same. Rock porn!!! shit, thought I had some hexes on me but they might have been on the other side.....

What Rocky Joes posted goes for this one too "New England Apex 10.5mm x 60m Dry Rope - Special Buy" 20% off till 8/13 So like $99 bucks. http://www.rei.com/outlet $124.93 - 20% deal click on this link

No Mark. I made the same choice as you and have no regrets. There is perhaps no more important thing in life than being a parent and being there for your kids. Cragging is safer, and feel free to back up any anchor you want anytime you want. No flames and no reason for flames. stay safe all:

Great soap opera find Off!!! Best post may be the interchange between Pope and Don who are seeing each other as we see them now: start with Popes reply to Don who is posing as the uber bitch "Donna". From the way back machine of 2001....(dim lights and cue organ music please) then in response to an anti-bolt Pope post to another CC'er: LOL!!! The dude named Whopper weighs in with this: Good,nee, GREAT stuff!!! The rest of the discussion makes me feel dirty and throw up in my mouth a little, so I think I'm done.

I just bought a new Gri Gri for $45. I bet if you check ebay, you could easily find some great deals on some good condition gear. Nuts and Metolius cams in particular, seem to have a long shelf life and good prices. http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/899611#Post899611

Layton has it.... Some variations: For me, regular nuts I like the DMM Wallnuts instead of the BD as they are lighter. I use to have the BD, the DMM hav ea slight edge is all, both are very good. Small DMM Bronze offsets rule for the small sizes. But same same otherwise. Can't go wrong passing on the Aliens, I still use mine esp in the Green/Yellow/Red as they are sooooo perfect, but I have a set of Metolius Mastercams I prefer for hard free climbing. Laytons #7 Wild Country flexible friend he mentions, he might have meant a Metolius #7. I've found the Metolius #5,6 and 7 to be great additions at times and they are very light and sick strong. For real long, easy routes, not so easy you can free solo it, but you won't be dogging (area dependent) the 4 larger hexes can often work great and are much lighter than a cam. Some areas take hexes so sweet. Trezlar and White Satin at Smith are some climbs that come to mind where there are better placements and work better than cams. Not gimme pitches at 5.9 and 5.10a, but you can grab and toss a hex as fast as a cam and it's a better placement in many spots as the constrictions are perfect for them. I'd pass on the Camp passive Tri-cams unless you are going to the gunks or Joshua Tree where they go from near totally sucking to near totally ruling pretty fast. For biners, few compare to the Wild Country Heliums as they hit the strength to weight sweet spot. Price though...*cough*cough....I have 45 of them and wish I'd bought more when they were on sale. For long alpine routes, the Oz are lighter. (not as strong)