j_b

How do the elite compensation packages compare with those in the private sector? Unless, of course, you intend to have public institutions managed by those at the bottom of their class.

Ah. So I guess this is where we part philosophically. While liberal socially I'm fiscally conservative - basically because I generally like the idea of accountability with tax payer money. And I want it to be used fugally so programs I support get their funding. So - no, I don't support the guaranteed benefits - at taxpayer expense, when said taxpayers have to figure their own way out. Keep ignoring that some states current inability to meet their obligations was caused by the very same people who crashed the economy and now want workers and employees to pay for their bailouts.

Mean New York public pension benefit paid in 2010: $18300. That's the reality, not the public employee punching you seem to enjoy. In fact, you are the one who pretends to ignore that 1) state deficit is due to plunging revenue caused by the economic crisis and the financial crash, not by public employee compensation that are on average less than that of the private sector, and 2) decreasing benefits and cutting jobs will deepen the previously mentioned economic crisis.

Why Does the Public Hear: "tales of six-figure pensions and public employees comfortably retiring in their early 50s"? Thursday, 16 June 2011 05:24 The NYT told readers that many states are planning to increase employee contributions to their pensions. One of the reasons is that legislators are hearing: "tales of six-figure pensions and public employees comfortably retiring in their early 50s." This is true because the media have been repeating tales circulated by right-wing and business organizations who are attacking public sector workers and public sector unions. In fact, the vast majority of public sector workers do not retiree in their early 50s and do not enjoy especially generous benefits. For example, in New York state, which is featured prominently in this article, the average benefit in 2010 paid by the state's main pension program was $18,300. Most of the workers who retiree in their early 50s are public safety employees like police and firefighters. If the media had been doing a competent job reporting on this issue, legislators would be hearing tales of 70-year old retirees trying to get by on less than $20,000 a year. (Roughly 30 percent of public sector employees do not get Social Security.) The article also includes the bizarre assertion that, "the era of generous compensation for public-sector employees is ending." In fact, after adjusting for education and experience the compensation for public employees is slightly less than for their private sector counterparts. This article also cites a Pew Center study that refers to a public pension shortfall of more than $1 trillion. It would have been worth noting that this shortfall is equal to approximately 0.25 percent of projected GDP over the next 30 years (the time horizon for most pensions). [..] http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/why-does-the-public-hear-qtales-of-six-figure-pensions-and-public-employees-comfortably-retiring-in-their-early-50sq

I gave you hard numbers, you prefer anecdotal evidence. There is little I can do for you.

Public Employees Earn Less Public employees earn less than their private sector counterparts when the total cost of wages and benefits is included. Nationally, state and local governments spent $26.25 per hour per employee in 2010, with 34% of total compensation represented by benefits. Private industry employers spent $27.88 per hour, with 29.4% for benefits.3 A study of national data controlling for education, work experience, annual hours worked, organizational size and other factors found that total compensation was 1.8% less for local government employees and 7.6% less for state government employees than for comparable private sector workers.4 A separate study found that state government employees across the country earned 6.8% less in total compensation than comparable private sector peers between 2000 and 2008, and local government employees earned 7.4% less.5 According to an analysis by the Seattle Times, median wages for the same type of work was lower for Washington state government workers than in the private sector in the majority of nearly 200 occupational categories examined. State government workers tended to earn higher wages in lower paying jobs.6 Over the past twenty years, the gap between public and private sector compensation has grown.7 http://www.eoionline.org/state_economy/fact_sheets/public-employee-compensation-mar11.pdf

The current median public pension benefit is $18,182 a year, according to the Washington State Treasurer. 78% of public pensions are less than $30,000 a year.22 The average annual benefit for all retirees of all these systems combined was $19,917 in 2009.23 Compare this to the total necessary annual income from the elder Economic Security Standard in our state.24 ELDER ECONOMIC SECURITY STANDARD INDEX FOR WASHINGTON, 2010: $18,336 (one person without mortgage) Washington has 99% of its public pension obligations funded – the state’s public pensions are in good financial shape. These combined pensions have net assets of $57.6 billion (as of June 30, 2010), having gained $5.5 billion in the past year.1 http://www.eoionline.org/retirement_security/reports/public-pensions-insuring-economic-security-may11.pdf

Fuck this noise. You deal with your 401k and wait for the next market bailout to recover your losses.

I don't need to make up jackshit. There are abuses and they should be rescinded but 800 people out of 100k is less than 1%, which is a far cry from pro-austerity types claiming that "public employees" make too much money and are responsible for state debt. Right on cue! right on cue to point out that you don't have an argument.

You talk out of both corners of your mouth. In one sentence, you describe public employee compensations as a fundamental cause of sovereign debt and in another you just want tweaks (inferring they are minor).

You should have gone into the public sector if you think most people in it make that much money. It's disingenuous to use the extreme compensations to portray what public employees get. It's something I'd expect from JayB and the regressive media but not from a "liberal".

I don't need to make up jackshit. There are abuses and they should be rescinded but 800 people out of 100k is less than 1%, which is a far cry from pro-austerity types claiming that "public employees" make too much money and are responsible for state deficits.

I don't know. MSNBC is somewhat of an anomaly. They have a fairly progressive non-prime time line up between hayes, Maddow and O'Donnell. We'll see how long this lasts (remember they fired Olbermann and NBC fired Donahue over the Iraq war)

Warning, 4th estate at work: Getting to the Bottom of Poop- and Pee-Gate

A little pepper with your turkey?

How to pay for the crisis while making the country more equitable, green, and secure: $824 billion/year in potential revenues - Revenues that advance a more equitable society: New taxes on Wall Street, corporations, and individuals could, if rigorously enforced, raise more than $375 billion a year, while reducing reckless speculative activity and creating a healthier society. Between 1935 and the late 1970s, progressive tax rates and investments in infrastructure, education, and housing expanded the middle class and served as a foundation for decades of broadly shared prosperity. Today, opinion polls indicate widespread renewed support for proposals to increase taxes on millionaires, make Wall Street pay its fair share, and close corporate tax loopholes. - Expenditure cuts that would make the United States and the world more secure: The Pentagon consumes more than half of U.S. federal discretionary spending, much of it on things that do not make us safer. While some jobs rely on this spending, a study by economists at the University of Massachusetts has shown that the military budget is a poor job creator compared to other forms of federal spending. Whereas $1 billion devoted to military production creates approximately 11,000 jobs, the same amount invested in clean energy creates about 17,000 jobs; in health care, 19,000 jobs; and in education, 29,000 jobs.2 We identify three areas where a total of $252 billion in cuts can be made to free up funds for job creation without risk to our national security. They are: End the war in Afghanistan as we end the war in Iraq; Reduce the sprawling network of overseas U.S. military bases; and Eliminate programs that are obsolete and/or wasteful. All three of these goals are supported by the majority of Americans. - Revenue increases and subsidy cuts that will create a cleaner environment: If all polluting industries were required to pay the full cost of environmentally harmful practices and products, they would have greater incentives to adopt improved green technologies and reduce our nation’s dependence on foreign oil. The Obama administration has promised to eliminate fossil fuel subsidies and yet U.S. taxpayers are still spending tens of billions of dollars per year on handouts to giant oil and other energy firms. We recommend eliminating this corporate welfare and introducing new taxes on pollution that could generate an estimated $197 billion per year in revenue. Linky

Even though you claim it's so obvious that you can do the math in your head, it still doesn't add up: the Greek economy was growing at 4.5%/yr since 2000, tax evasion and corruption were rampant, the financial crash and global economic down turn tanked the Greek economy, revenue decreased radically which was compounded by austerity measures, and you conclude they can't pay their debt because public employees have it too easy?

No, the economy (tourism, shipping, ect) tanked after the financial crash of 2008, which decreased radically their ability to generate revenue. Ask Goldman Sacks that enabled them to hide the size of their deficit to investors. Retirement at an early age is one of the best way to reduce unemployment and give a chance to youth. Also retirement from a job doesn't have to mean being unproductive.

I wouldn't call kochoctopus propaganda 'literature'.

No ability to repay first invokes inability to raise revenue so there is no logical reason to declare it’s first and foremost a welfare spending problem, especially since we are in the middle of a huge economic downturn (and declining revenues) due to 30 years of financial speculation and rising inequalities. Perhaps, people also recall the studies showing that public employee compensations are on average less than that of private sector employees with similar education and responsibilities.

Myth about the media: Media and the War

I don't see how any of this means the media reported on the antiwar movement and relayed its message. Cronkite declaring that Vietnam was a stalemate in 68, and reporters dying to report on what happened in Vietnam doesn't mean that much reporting questioned the logic, tactics and the language of war. You'll have to add more insults next time, perhaps it'll be more convincing.

Impressive contribution to this thread by the right wing dipshits

by opposition to chalking it to being a blowhard who doesn't have a fucking clue?

Hang around with many leaders? I didn't know that was a pre-requisite to be a student of history.