Stonehead

Your original assertion was that orthodox Buddhists are atheists. I disagreed and provided my simple definition of an atheist as a materialist with no belief in the supernatural. Then I stated that Buddhism has a large quantity of supernatural beliefs incorporated within its doctrine. As far as theism, I don't believe I'd equate Buddhism with Theism, that is, theism with the element of a belief in God or gods. So again, I'm refuting that Buddhists are atheists regardless of whether some Buddhists are also theists. Further, take a look at the notions of karma and rebirth that figure prominently in Siddharta Buddha's teachings. Karma is not attributed to God or gods but it is seen as a cosmic force, a sort of cosmic justice. So here, you have something relatively omnipresent but impersonal, godlike in quality but not god. Do you get what I'm getting at? As far as the pure, uncorrupted sayings of the Buddha concerning the way, recall that he said something along the lines of, "It cannot be taught, only realized." Since it might also even be beyond formal logic, that's another indicator that it's a religion and not simply ethics or philosophy. Strictly speaking, although Buddhism would say that enlightenment is indeed beyond any formal logic or intellectual understanding, any "faith" that might be spoken of in Buddhist teachings is less a matter of any sense or idea of a deity or presence, than it is, as one Zen master put it, trusting oneself, believing in oneself, as both being, and already existing in, a state of highest perfect enlightenment. And that this "Buddha nature" IS everything both within us and outside of us. The Zen folks call it, thus "No inside and no outside", because it's all the same thing. Zen teachers call this "dying of thirst while standing in the middle of the river", and one teacher has said, "Big Mind,(Buddha mind or enlightened mind) is something you already HAVE, not something to go seeking for." So the teachers will often speak of it as your "original nature", or "true nature." And it definitely is NOT theistic, because Buddhist texts and sutras (literally, "teachings") speak of everything as being essentially "empty", without form, color, taste, smell, sound or touch. And this "emptiness" is referred to as "No Mind", or "Big, Mind", "Buddha Mind","Bodhi Mind", etc., simply for the inability of any language or rational thought, to correctly convey what it is, or what it's like. This "true nature" of reality, in the Buddhist understanding, has absolutely nothing to do with anything that might be conceived of as a god or gods, supernatural powers, etc. There's one little tale of the Buddha traveling and coming upon an old man meditating by the river. Buddha stopped to chat, and asked, "So, how's it going?", and the old man said, "Oh,you know, pretty good, I've gotten to where I can walk across the river on the water, now." And the Buddha said, "Oh, man! What a waste of time; the ferry's just a hundred yards up the river!". Zen masters and Hindu Yogis know all about making teacups fly across the room, etc., but that's just cheap tricks, way off the point. It is true that Buddhism, as did early Christianity, appropriated and incorporated imagery and iconography from ancient religions it was contemporary with, such as Nepalese and Tibetan Bon dieties and spirits, Hindu and Jain gods and goddesses, Chinese folk magic, Thai Shamanism, Shinto ghosts and demons, etc., in order to facilitate teaching of Buddhist precepts and meditation training. So, in Japan, for instance, the diety known as Fudo Myo,a fierce-looking little guy with a fanged, snarling visage, packing a flaming sword,( and looking very much like a Tibetan or Chinese Demon or Devil Dog, swirling clouds, necklace of human skulls, the whole nine yards) is the same as the Hindu Achala, and both of these embody the spirit or quality of Accomplished Wrath, what a Christian might call Righteous Indignation or Justice. But it's all just for effect. In Buddhism itself, even the BUDDHA himself, and especially images or any concept of the Buddha as a god, or deity, or even as a human being possessed of supernatural powers, is roundly condemned and denied any practical relevance or value. As they say, "if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him",because that's NOT IT, that has nothing to do with real understanding, it's just an illusion and an obstacle. The teachers will tell you, "A wooden Buddha cannot get you through fire, a stone Buddha will not carry you across the river, a bronze Buddha will not survive the furnace..". It might be true that some Buddhists worship Buddha, but the strict understanding is that, if anything, images of Buddha are mainly just to serve as a reminder to get your ass planted on that meditation cushion, just like Buddha himself did, and look into things yourself, instead of expecting some ethereal power, god, or magical "energy" to do it for you. Buddha was no god, but just a human being like anyone else, and what he discovered, by looking into himself, was not "God", but that everything is, as stated above, "empty". Literally, "nothing" to it. It may be that you have somewhat confused Buddhism, or some cultural FORMS of Buddhism, with these other religions. But that would be a misinterpretation of basic Buddhist understanding at it's simplest and most direct. Shunryu Suzuki Roshi, in his little book "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" says that if you want to, you may call Buddhism a religion, but it really doesn't matter, that actually, Buddhism is beyond religion, or maybe "religion before religion". So it might not be religion in it's usual sense." Because it's mainly just a practice, not even a worship or way of prayer. And he continues that the main point of Buddhist practice is simply "to appreciate our original nature," and then to live our daily lives, moment to moment, out of that understanding Elsewhere, Suzuki Roshi ("Roshi" just means "teacher".) says, regarding this "original nature", that some people may call it "God", and that if you want to call it "God" or "reality", that's OK, it doesn't really matter. But he does say that what we might think of as God or reality or existence, and "what I mean by that, may not be what you mean." It is not some objective "thing". And even though it is characterized or described as being "empty", this "emptiness" is not just void, but it has some rules or structure to it, so that what we may call 'empty' is actually, in a sense "full", that moment after moment, everything comes out of this "nothingness." Not easy to explain. I'm doing a very poor job of it, probably just making matters worse. Regarding the whole issue and concept of "karma", to de-mystify that for you in just three words: Cause. And. Effect. Cause and Effect. In modern physics we understand the whole idea of interconnectedness, or as the Buddhists call it, interdependence, and interpenetration of all things; expressed by the New Age phrase, "Pick a flower, and touch the farthest star". But it's not some magical, supernatural cosmic justice system, rather a pretty ordinary, practical understanding that it matters what we do. Almost Newtonian-"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Anything we do is like throwing a pebble into a pond; the ripples spread outward, they move the grasses at the edge of the water, those motions affect the movements of air, temperature, insects, etc. So. Dump your waste oil into the ocean, kill marine life and eventually wind up with hydrocarbons and PCBs in your bloodstream. Do something evil, and you set in motion a whole chain of circumstances which may eventually come around to harm you as well. The Chinese have a folk proverb, "The hatred you bear your enemy burns you more than it does him." And the opposite is equally true. Act with kindness and generosity, and it will move through the fabric of society and life and contribute to make things better for all. We may not benefit directly, but there is plenty of research to indicate that, if you're unhappy, a good way to feel better right away is to do something for someone else. Finally, this brings us all the way back to the original question that started this thread, praying to Jesus to be a better climber, Buddhism, etc. One Zen teacher, when asked about the relation of Buddhism to Christianity, said, "I think Jesus and Buddha are very good friends." A story to explain: Years ago, while living on the Blood Indian reserve in SW Alberta, Canada, I went to visit an old Blackfoot medicine man. I was working at the tribal Youth Ranch, and the man who ran it refused to spend money on veterinary care and medicine for the horses, who were riddled with a whole variety of ailments and injuries, many easily treatable. Someone told me to go see old Jim White Calf, maybe he could do a sweatlodge ceremony. White Calf, (or 'Onistipokah' in Blackfoot,meaning "Sacred White Buffalo Calf") was 106 years old at the time. He listened to my troubles, and then said, "Well, since the white man came, everything has changed. We used to have people who could actually cure bullet wounds using sweetgrass smoke and an eagle wing fan. If it was done the right way, often the wounds would heal almost immediately. Now, we believe that the white man came for a reason; they have many things to show us; and we have many things to show them. It is all, in spite of the tragedies and killings, a Great Teaching. But nowdays, when people come to me to heal them of this or that, I tell them, 'if you're sick, go see the doctor'. Oh sure, I'll be glad to do a sweatlodge, but we do the sweatlodge AND go to the doctor. You need to do BOTH." So, if you want to pray to Jesus, I think it's perfectly appropriate to ask for guidance and help in becoming a better climber, but not in the sense that Jesus will, by some supernatural powers, make you a better climber if you just pray enough. If you want to ask for the inner strength and discipline necessary to train hard, to overcome fear or laziness or procrastination, fine. If you want to pray for guidance in learning the best way to train, fine. But the actual face-to-the-rock, nose-to-the-grindstone hard work of laps, weights, conditioning, reading and study, budgeting your time and money to get from where you are, to where you want to go,YOU are the one who has to do that, and if I understand Jesus at all, he didn't let anyone off that easy, even if he did change water into wine. After all, he and Joseph were carpenters, just regular old guys who knew what hard work was all about. He'd tell you that the only way that beam is gonna get cut, is you pick up that saw and get to it. And make sure you checked your measurements first. I think Jesus was probably a pretty rough ol' boy; he didn't kick those moneylenders out of the temple for nothing. And just like Buddha said, "Folks, I can't really tell you what it is, but I CAN tell you how to experience it for yourself, and that means you gotta plant your butt on the cushion and meditate, and this is how"; well, I don't Jesus is gonna do your climbing for you, either. A real honest-to-goodness Zen master is about as tough a teacher as you'll find anywhere; and the essential understanding has been passed, person to person, all the way from the Buddha himself to the teacher who sits in front of you and whacks your noggin with his stick and bellows "Show me your original self!". It's all based on actual personal experience and self-realization. Just a couple more: Harry Roberts, an old Yurok Indian teacher, once said, "One who does not make his own way, can never approach creation." And my own Mother used to say, " I wouldn't give a fig for anyone's religion, whose very cat and dog are not the better for it." All right. Way too many words. Starts with you. Now just go do it. Ah, yes. I once spoke with a Zen master. “What is enlightenment?” I inquired. Fully expecting the master to answer with the usual koan --“What is the sound of one hand clapping?” he said, "Look thus."

I don't own any complete copies of his writings but I've read many segments of them, so no and yes. [video:youtube]v=j4XT-l-_3y0

Can you parse this? [video:youtube]v=kCIqFAdI6eI [video:youtube]v=kjKPJEDrGdI

[img:left]http://cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/500/thumbs/miscellaneous_86.gif[/img] “When you glance at the Hasselhoff feeling neither repulsion nor fascination then you have achieved the realization arriving at the threshold of enlightenment. If, however, you linger over this image even for a moment you will await many lifetimes to gain enough merits to re-experience this opportunity for awakening. [/url] http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Recursion

Your original assertion was that orthodox Buddhists are atheists. I disagreed and provided my simple definition of an atheist as a materialist with no belief in the supernatural. Then I stated that Buddhism has a large quantity of supernatural beliefs incorporated within its doctrine. As far as theism, I don't believe I'd equate Buddhism with Theism, that is, theism with the element of a belief in God or gods. So again, I'm refuting that Buddhists are atheists regardless of whether some Buddhists are also theists. Further, take a look at the notions of karma and rebirth that figure prominently in Siddharta Buddha's teachings. Karma is not attributed to God or gods but it is seen as a cosmic force, a sort of cosmic justice. So here, you have something relatively omnipresent but impersonal, godlike in quality but not god. Do you get what I'm getting at? As far as the pure, uncorrupted sayings of the Buddha concerning the way, recall that he said something along the lines of, "It cannot be taught, only realized." Since it might also even be beyond formal logic, that's another indicator that it's a religion and not simply ethics or philosophy.

Are you confusing "bastardized" with syncretic? Bastardized should imply illegitimacy. Maybe a better word I could have used is "truncated" in that the popular Western mass approach to Buddhism is simply ethics, whereas in the East it appears more as an established religion. I don't believe one can talk credibly about Buddhism without speaking of the Three Jewels: Buddha, Sangha, and Dharma. So in that sense, one can't speculate as to a pure practice involving only the words of Gautama Buddha.

That's a good question (what is god?). I disagree wit ya on whether Buddhists are atheists. Some of the New Age varieties of Buddhism might fit your description but Buddhism is primarily a syncretic religion that merges local religious beliefs such as seen in Tibet with the Bon deities or in Japan with the Shinto kami. Furthermore, Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism combines Hindu and Buddhist icons. Of course, everything depends on your definition of what constitutes a god or an atheist. Could you agree that an atheist is simply a materialist in that he does not believe in existence apart from the corporeal body and as a materialist he chooses not to believe in god(s)? So, he does not believe in the supernatural. Yet Buddhism is chock full of the supernatural. Sure, real psychological insights might get you hooked into the religion but the ultimate goal is reaching the state of nirvana, that elusive goal that, it’s said, only one being achieves within aeons of Time. It seems to me that a tacit belief in the supernatural is prerequisite to the goal of Buddhist enlightened self-interest (compassion towards all sentient beings is the action that leads to nirvana). I suppose though if you were to take the New Age tact and practice a bastardized version of Buddhism as a technology of the body and mind then sure, go ahead and use autogenic suggestion, self-hypnosis, etc. You might eke out some performance gains but at some point you’ll reach a pinnacle where “biology is destiny”.

Maybe, maybe not. Seems like a very subjective question where one has to supply a lot of assumptions to answer. In the general case, I’d have to lean towards maybe not, especially as it relates to a special factor but even within the context of an overall scheme such as body conditioning, physical and mental training, working on technique, etc. However, in a more specific case, I’d have to say yes. Consider the hypothetical case of an Iraqi war veteran who has lost one of his legs but was a climber before his deployment. Religion in that case might assist in finding some source of strength in the face of adversity. At the very least, a community of like-minded individuals will serve to provide constructive reinforcement. And if the climber with the prosthetic leg fails a particular project then religion might give him solace to continue sending on other ambitious projects or adapt to realities. So my conclusion is, a climber needn't have a Nietzschean ethic to be a better climber.

[video:youtube]v=_0M__0Z1pjg

His model doesn't disagree with yours, just that the copyright laws must be brought up-to-date with today's realities. For instance, take a look at the concept of the Creative Commons where there are something like four different categories of copyright, each one differing in how the material may be used/reproduced. http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses/

--Hendrix, 5/24/69 [video:youtube]v=_yC81QhR_xk [video:youtube]v=7Q25-S7jzgs

Ahh, that wasn't directed at you. But everybody in general.

[video:youtube]v=937U2FI9Fhs

to take the question seriously though, it ain't that hard to rationalize taking care of haitians in their own country as being self-interested - disasters in that island have historically resulted in mass migrations to the usa, and political instabilyt there has resulted in our occupation of the island a dozen times or so in the past century - so it's our problem if we deal w/ it in situ or not, yeah? it wasn't a serious question? it was rhetorical. why am i not banned yet? lets have book burning party. Well, California comes to mind. And I also think I heard Gregoire say that she's hoping federal monies will come rescue WA. As far as jobs, Obama expects the states and the private sector to create jobs. Still, a lower standard of living is no comparison to the sudden loss experienced during a calamity so don't jump my ass I'm not equating the two. The misery index due to the effects of debt isn't gonna go down for anyone anything soon. Is there an elephant in the room? Trillions Of Troubles Ahead--Forbes.com US must cut spending to save AAA rating, warns Fitch Wave of Debt Payments Facing U.S. Government--NYTimes Maybe it's time for a grand jubilee.

Damn, look at the contrast between the Dominician Republic and Haiti. Do ya think the bankers will have the compassion to forgive the Haitian debts?

The Trolley Problem: A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are 5 people who have been tied to the track by the mad philosopher. Fortunately, you can flip a switch, which will lead the trolley down a different track to safety. Unfortunately, there is a single person tied to that track. Should you flip the switch?

Maybe the inside joke at Fox is that Palin will draw people who ordinarily wouldn't tune in.

The best part is the voodoo satanists is actually us, according to Maggie Koerth-Baker: http://www.boingboing.net/2010/01/13/haitis-real-deal-wit.html It was pretty damn amusing when that guy from Goldman Sachs said he was basically doing God's work. Goldman Sachs Head Says Banks Do 'God's Work'

That pretty much says it all. I just wonder though if the elitist attitude in both parties will take a thumping in 2012 as populist sentiment is consolidated into a viable political force fueled by the continuation of conditions mimicking economic depression. Also, I could never understand the incongruity of neglecting the folks closest to one, say abusive alcoholic Uncle Joe or your next door neighbor, yet at the same time advocating a Kumbaya approach to complete strangers on the other side of the globe because you think the they're getting a bad rap. Why are people nicer to people they don't know as opposed to someone you might know? Familiarity breeds contempt? People of Wal-Mart? "Alcoholic Uncle Joe" is a great guy, deep down, and we all love him. But we won't be letting him take the kids out for a Sunday drive, either. And we don't want him to be President. If you think xenophobia, racism, paranoia, 16th century religious fundamentalism that belongs on the same shelf with Harry Potter and Batman, and lack of education (elitists! OMG) is just what we need, knock yourself out. You're failing to understand what I'm saying, not that you're unintelligent but perhaps I didn't state it right. Shouldn't domestic problems such as unemployment take precedence? The Obama administration might be preparing to tackle the illegal immigration issue ( Obama Readying Immigration Overhaul Despite Political Risks) but will he do so at the risk of alienating many voters who are unemployed or underemployed?

She's one of us. That pretty much says it all. I just wonder though if the elitist attitude in both parties will take a thumping in 2012 as populist sentiment is consolidated into a viable political force fueled by the continuation of conditions mimicking economic depression. Also, I could never understand the incongruity of neglecting the folks closest to one, say abusive alcoholic Uncle Joe or your next door neighbor, yet at the same time advocating a Kumbaya approach to complete strangers on the other side of the globe because you think the they're getting a bad rap. Why are people nicer to people they don't know as opposed to someone you might know? Familiarity breeds contempt? People of Wal-Mart?

Well, here's a case where who was killed can strongly predetermine the likely punishment. Death, the Drug War, and Cory Maye Justice, at Last, for Cory Maye?

Yet, most people have no problem with abortion or Death with Dignity, cases where death is determined by the individual. Of course, these deaths are not in the context of crime and punishment but there are the somewhat common elements of innocence and expediency.

Not that Iran is Arabic but perhaps if secularism were to take hold, then the problem of Pan-Arabism could eventually lead to a resource war. As precarious and contradictory as it seems, perhaps a state of tension serves the purpose of assuring the flow of oil.

Let me be perfectly clear... Make no mistake... With New Surge, One Thousand U.S. Soldiers and $300 Million for Every One al Qaeda Fighter Oh wait...it's the Taliban were after! We should send Xe hit teams into Pakistan.

Wanna help your climbing? Get some tips from this video about climber/comic artist describing his experiences in South America. Remember climbing is dangerous. http://www.realitysandwich.com/into_red_zone_ayahuasca_monologue