Geek_the_Greek

With Dru writing sincere, heartfelt answers, you KNOW this is a rare thread! The problem with the 'inspiration' model is that it doesn't take very many good climbers to inspire the thousands of 'inspirees' out there. I don't think anyone will ever be particularly inspired by my climbing (as opposed to Peter Croft or Lynn Hill or whoever out there that does it all way way more gracefully and better than me). To me it does come down to some sort of contribution - not necessarily positive (what is a positive contribution to the world, really? So subjective...): I feel that I am better at other things in life than I am at climbing. Therefore, to die climbing would be a waste of those other things. I realize that I may die climbing, but I hope I do not, for that reason. If I reach my 70s or 80s, then I suppose to die climbing might be a blessing at that point, save me and those around me a painful decline. But to say that now is meaningless, because chances are good that I won't feel that way in 40 or 50 years.

In South Africa in 2000 this type of thing was all the rage on top of Land Rovers. Every self-respecting Rhodie camper had some sort of off-the-ground tend on their vehicle to keep them off the ground and away from the scorpions and other nasties. But I agree with Couloir that you might crush your Honda or Subaru pretty quickly with a couple of people and one of these. Maybe only on vehicles with a roll bar?

Thanks for your well thought-out piece, Norman. But I do disagree with some of it: Well, no. There is a non-negligible risk of serious injury every time you go climbing. That risk does not exist for the other activities you mention. The matter of not exercising and eating too much is irrelevant, because the risk is only non-negligible when the activity (gluttony and sloth) is extended over years and years. Sure, but smoking and climbing are independent. There are many climbers who smoke, and many non-climbers who don't smoke. And of course tobacco is physically addictive, and its risks are also only manifest in the long-term. Climbing is at most slightly psychologically addictive (for some people), and its risks are immediate. I.e. you can die just as easily your first time top-roping a 5.4, if the anchor fails. No one dies after smoking a pack of cigs.

Interesting topic, indeed - the age-old thread, or at least as old as climbing itself. To me a lot of this sounds like justification. Like the idea that you are just as likely to die driving as climbing, so one might as well climb. I don't believe this, and in my experience you don't have to be climbing for very long before the list of your peers who died climbing (or skiing, etc.) is longer than the list of your peers who died in other means (car accidents, illnesses, etc.). Here's a question to test how much you enjoy climbing: given the choice of doing some other form of recreation (jogging, board games, partying, whatever - let's leave out sex, since that's in its own category) with someone you really like, or climbing with someone you really don't like, how often would you pick the climbing? This may be an indication of whether it's the climbing you're after, or maybe it's just recreating with good people. No right answers here, just an interesting exercise.

Naw, that shit doesn't need mentioning. It's not like anyone ever says "well, I was able to do it because of my +6 ape-index", or "I have 9" wide fists, so it was easier for me". We all have our physical issues, and make do. That's what makes climbing grades so dumb and arbitrary, and it's only the mags (and their zealots) who really care about the difference between 13c/d and 13d. Kudos to Tommy!

Buuullshit. Failures of properly used gear are pretty much unheard-of today. "Cut" ropes mean the sheath ripped, not that the rope sliced in two; broken 'biners always end up being cross-loaded or have their gates open; when gear pulls out it's almost always because the rock crumbled, not because the piece broke (exceptions are limited to tiny pieces rated for aid only). Ok, once in a long while a bad batch gets out of the factory and gets recalled, but instances of injuries from this stuff failing are so rare as to not be an issue. Risk assessment sure is important, but failure of your gear (properly used, in decent shape) is the last safety element you have to worry about. If CCH has released a bunk product, they should get their thumbs out of their asses and get it properly recalled. In this case it sounds like the flaw is obvious, but hopefully no one will find out about it as they fidget at the crux after a long runout.

Ah well, I got bogged down in work and other stuff. Maybe next time...

Ryan, Thanks indeed for your post. I hope it brought you some solace; if not, it remains a powerful piece of writing for us to read.

Nice lightning rod to have up by your head. Although it's probably wood, so not so bad. Nice pic.

Yeh, what Dru said. Only reason I can think of to climb there is if it's raining in L'worth.

Hmm. Thinking about making an appearance too. I dig the trivia. Is cc.com actually going to have a team, or just show up for the brews?

I have never done the Terror creek approach. But all that slippery log stuff happens while hiking too, fording streams and the like. As for veggie belay, sure, but that kind of means you're climbing or scrambling already, so it's a given. I still maintain that only climbers find themselves doing heinous bushwacking on not-necessarily steep terrain. If there was a trail there, it would be class 1. Without the trail, it's brutal bushwacking, ergo, qualifies as climbing. There once was a man from Nantucket ah, never mind.

Vesper Peak yesterday - only the tiniest of remnant patches at summit (6200 ft or so). Basically no snow. Misting all day.

I might be interested in the bindings. What year are they?

Hmm. I guess that was way too much effort expended on this dumb thread.

I'm sure that with just a little effort, this thread can be placed in the context of a bolting argument, and thereby given new life and meaning. What about bushwacking? It seems to be one of those self-abusive tendencies to which only 'climbers' subject themselves. The bushwack approach to a mellow ridge scramble can definitely be the most extreme and strenuous part of the day. And yet, it doesn't usually involve danger, roping up, or placing gear. [Note - irrelevant musings/random thread drift ahead] I think in the future, dirt will distinguish alpine climbing from all other pursuits (which will be indistinguishable from gym climbing). All previously climbed rock will have been scrubbed clean long ago and be either bolted or festooned with fixed gear (the effect being the same). Vast road networks will bring climbers to within 50 ft. of the climb/boulders/artificial wall, and one will merely have to exit one's vehicle and line up for a turn. The real adventurers will bushwack up horrendous valleys of second growth and exotic shrubbery (think himalayan blackberry) that have grown in where the glaciers used to be. These rabid misanthropes will scratch their way up dirty, flakey, disconnected ridges, seeking to avoid all other human contact. They will keep their ascents secret to maintain the spirit of adventure, and will never bushwack or climb the same route, so as to not accidentally clean it. Obviously, Dru, your poll needs a new category. It's only climbing when there's bushwacking involved, and at least a few moments of vicious hatred towards life.

Great deal going at MEC right now Edelrid 50m 10.3 Edelrid is one of the few brands that they will ship to the US too. Of course, you have to add 14% taxes, and shipping, but it still works out to about US$100

PM sent.

I predict ...an early start to winter ...an annoying thaw in late January ...some good dumping in March, extending the season well into the spring ...an abrupt warming in early May ...a hot and dry summer with lots of fires No reason for all this, just kind of a gut feeling.

Bah - those problems exist with most non-keylock biners and are nothing new. Put aside your panicking, and just try to avoid cross-loading the belay biner.

Well, it is on private land. That guy really looks like he's having fun. He must be the best via ferrata-ist in the world! Otherwise, what Chirp said.

Because the soil would get all compacted to shit, eh? Aren't you supposed to be an environmental consultant?! Sounds like a fun trip up Mt. Dru!

That and the fact that all the rock there is shite. Pechosstin, as John Millar used to call it.

The thing that I don't get is that around here, there is ample evidence of crowding on trad routes, with the land use issues to match. Leavenworth, Index, Squamish - these aren't sport climbing areas, and yet all have plenty of crowding issues, land-use conflicts, environmental concerns etc. The biggest crowds I've ever seen have been from groups of top-ropers and classes (Mounties, etc.) at places like Bruce's Boulder (11worth) or in the Smoke Bluffs (Squish). These folks weren't sport climbing. I don't know, man, I guess it depends on what you've seen. I learned to climb in Squamish, and have seen the transformation of cliffs like Burgers and Fries in a scant decade or so (trad toproping/beginner leading - all trees at the top killed from top-rope anchoring, trampling of thin soil, and housing development; garbage issues from local yahoos; conflicts with locals over noise, trespassing, etc.). I'm afraid these issues have to do with growth and development (of the town), and not with bolts. I maintain that access is the biggest issue affecting crowding. Crowding sucks when you want to climb there and feel like you're surrounded by unsafe gumby morons, but it's a catch-22: without a strong community, climbers are a fringe group easily pushed aside by developers and private property folks. Part of how you get a strong community voice is by having significant numbers of interested people.

Ethical? Unethical? Sloppy is more like it. I guess a long draw is fine as a temporary fix, but it's much better (IMO) if said bolt is eventually relocated to a better spot. (Do it quickly before the old one rusts and becomes 'historic'.) Yank the old one, put a little epoxy filler in the hole with some rock dust, no one knows the difference. An entirely different issue is on routes that are being worked. Sometimes bolts can be clipped more than once for dogging on, so you might see a long draw and a short one (or a single biner, sans draw) on the same bolt. On redpoint attempts (ok, pinkpoints technically, but no one cares about the difference anymore), some of these draws or bolts don't even get clipped.