Geek_the_Greek

Buuullshit. Failures of properly used gear are pretty much unheard-of today. "Cut" ropes mean the sheath ripped, not that the rope sliced in two; broken 'biners always end up being cross-loaded or have their gates open; when gear pulls out it's almost always because the rock crumbled, not because the piece broke (exceptions are limited to tiny pieces rated for aid only). Ok, once in a long while a bad batch gets out of the factory and gets recalled, but instances of injuries from this stuff failing are so rare as to not be an issue. Risk assessment sure is important, but failure of your gear (properly used, in decent shape) is the last safety element you have to worry about. If CCH has released a bunk product, they should get their thumbs out of their asses and get it properly recalled. In this case it sounds like the flaw is obvious, but hopefully no one will find out about it as they fidget at the crux after a long runout.

Ah well, I got bogged down in work and other stuff. Maybe next time...

Ryan, Thanks indeed for your post. I hope it brought you some solace; if not, it remains a powerful piece of writing for us to read.

Nice lightning rod to have up by your head. Although it's probably wood, so not so bad. Nice pic.

Yeh, what Dru said. Only reason I can think of to climb there is if it's raining in L'worth.

Hmm. Thinking about making an appearance too. I dig the trivia. Is cc.com actually going to have a team, or just show up for the brews?

I have never done the Terror creek approach. But all that slippery log stuff happens while hiking too, fording streams and the like. As for veggie belay, sure, but that kind of means you're climbing or scrambling already, so it's a given. I still maintain that only climbers find themselves doing heinous bushwacking on not-necessarily steep terrain. If there was a trail there, it would be class 1. Without the trail, it's brutal bushwacking, ergo, qualifies as climbing. There once was a man from Nantucket ah, never mind.

Vesper Peak yesterday - only the tiniest of remnant patches at summit (6200 ft or so). Basically no snow. Misting all day.

Hmm. I guess that was way too much effort expended on this dumb thread.

I'm sure that with just a little effort, this thread can be placed in the context of a bolting argument, and thereby given new life and meaning. What about bushwacking? It seems to be one of those self-abusive tendencies to which only 'climbers' subject themselves. The bushwack approach to a mellow ridge scramble can definitely be the most extreme and strenuous part of the day. And yet, it doesn't usually involve danger, roping up, or placing gear. [Note - irrelevant musings/random thread drift ahead] I think in the future, dirt will distinguish alpine climbing from all other pursuits (which will be indistinguishable from gym climbing). All previously climbed rock will have been scrubbed clean long ago and be either bolted or festooned with fixed gear (the effect being the same). Vast road networks will bring climbers to within 50 ft. of the climb/boulders/artificial wall, and one will merely have to exit one's vehicle and line up for a turn. The real adventurers will bushwack up horrendous valleys of second growth and exotic shrubbery (think himalayan blackberry) that have grown in where the glaciers used to be. These rabid misanthropes will scratch their way up dirty, flakey, disconnected ridges, seeking to avoid all other human contact. They will keep their ascents secret to maintain the spirit of adventure, and will never bushwack or climb the same route, so as to not accidentally clean it. Obviously, Dru, your poll needs a new category. It's only climbing when there's bushwacking involved, and at least a few moments of vicious hatred towards life.

Great deal going at MEC right now Edelrid 50m 10.3 Edelrid is one of the few brands that they will ship to the US too. Of course, you have to add 14% taxes, and shipping, but it still works out to about US$100

I predict ...an early start to winter ...an annoying thaw in late January ...some good dumping in March, extending the season well into the spring ...an abrupt warming in early May ...a hot and dry summer with lots of fires No reason for all this, just kind of a gut feeling.

Bah - those problems exist with most non-keylock biners and are nothing new. Put aside your panicking, and just try to avoid cross-loading the belay biner.

Well, it is on private land. That guy really looks like he's having fun. He must be the best via ferrata-ist in the world! Otherwise, what Chirp said.

Because the soil would get all compacted to shit, eh? Aren't you supposed to be an environmental consultant?! Sounds like a fun trip up Mt. Dru!

That and the fact that all the rock there is shite. Pechosstin, as John Millar used to call it.

The thing that I don't get is that around here, there is ample evidence of crowding on trad routes, with the land use issues to match. Leavenworth, Index, Squamish - these aren't sport climbing areas, and yet all have plenty of crowding issues, land-use conflicts, environmental concerns etc. The biggest crowds I've ever seen have been from groups of top-ropers and classes (Mounties, etc.) at places like Bruce's Boulder (11worth) or in the Smoke Bluffs (Squish). These folks weren't sport climbing. I don't know, man, I guess it depends on what you've seen. I learned to climb in Squamish, and have seen the transformation of cliffs like Burgers and Fries in a scant decade or so (trad toproping/beginner leading - all trees at the top killed from top-rope anchoring, trampling of thin soil, and housing development; garbage issues from local yahoos; conflicts with locals over noise, trespassing, etc.). I'm afraid these issues have to do with growth and development (of the town), and not with bolts. I maintain that access is the biggest issue affecting crowding. Crowding sucks when you want to climb there and feel like you're surrounded by unsafe gumby morons, but it's a catch-22: without a strong community, climbers are a fringe group easily pushed aside by developers and private property folks. Part of how you get a strong community voice is by having significant numbers of interested people.

Ethical? Unethical? Sloppy is more like it. I guess a long draw is fine as a temporary fix, but it's much better (IMO) if said bolt is eventually relocated to a better spot. (Do it quickly before the old one rusts and becomes 'historic'.) Yank the old one, put a little epoxy filler in the hole with some rock dust, no one knows the difference. An entirely different issue is on routes that are being worked. Sometimes bolts can be clipped more than once for dogging on, so you might see a long draw and a short one (or a single biner, sans draw) on the same bolt. On redpoint attempts (ok, pinkpoints technically, but no one cares about the difference anymore), some of these draws or bolts don't even get clipped.

Aha! An admittance that you've been to X32, and thereby are a SPORT CLIMBER. (Don't even try to pretend you were there for the gear routes.) I have no doubt that all the bolts there were placed on rap, and it's very unfortunate that some of them were probably placed in stupid places. And of course, on most of those routes, you couldn't place gear if you wanted to, so it's not a matter of being wussy, it's a matter of wanting to climb a certain line (and not soloing it, thanks anyway). Yes, the stark truth is that MOST BOLTS PLACED NOWADAYS ARE PLACED ON RAPPEL (ascenders, actually). Lord forgive us all.

Ah, some backup! And a sense of humor. Much appreciated.

Why not? If everyone (with a few notable exceptions) is at least occasionally into sport climbing, but no one will admit it, what kind of wanker chestbeat discussion is this? "Yeah, trad's totally the shit, man. Bolts are for total losers." "But wait, didn't you go clip bolts at Vantage last weekend, and spray all about what a good time it was?" "Uh, yeah, but, um, it was kind of wet on the westside. Whatever, man, I'm not into that stuff." Hypocrisy is the root of all evil.

I defend bolting to a reasonable extent in these discussions because no one else seems too eager to step up and do it. Even people on this board who I climb with and who really enjoy the occasionaly day of sport climbing seem very reluctant to admit it here. If everyone was trashing on trad climbing as crazy or passe or only for moldy has-beens, I would be defending its merits. But it's silly, because there are obviously a huge number of people who enjoy bolted climbs, whether or not they care to talk about it here. If this board is to be at least somewhat relevant to the real world, it's pointless to ignore that reality, or try to wish it away. The ways and reasons people climb are obviously diverse. I think there's room for diversity, and think that more people climbing has made the sport/activity better, not worse (environmental impacts and occasionaly crowding notwithstanding). The world changes rapidly these days, folks. Don't expect climbing to be the same 20 years from now either.

What a snide answer, Joseph. You'd think I was out there waving banners to promote sport climbing, or that I was the first one to discuss bolting on rappel. People climb rap bolted routes. Deal with it - it's been going on for 20 years, and isn't going away. A guy should have the right to ask a how-to question on a Newbies forum without getting everyone's narcissistic fanaticism shoved in his face.

It's kind of funny that the question really had nothing to do with ethics of any sort, or how to trad climb. The dude is asking how (not why!) you go about bolting a steep or long sport rig. Obviously no one here knows shit about it, or doesn't care to get flamed for giving how-to advice on bolting.

?? Scarface was never .14c. It was .14a at first, with much hoopla about it being the first 5.14 established by an American. Then it was downgraded to .13d...