pindude

quote: Originally posted by michael_layton: See a PT, chiropractor, or even a massage therapist before seeing a MD. Drugs and surgery are a last resort. Hope you get well soon. Naaawww...forget going to your regular GP or family doc, who should gladly give you a referral to the best orthopedist he or she knows (or will send you to your request of Zorn, who seems to be the winner on this board so far). Maybe you should just go to an iridologist, reflexologist, astrologist, maybe even somebody who speaks in tongues. No, wait, how about a voodoo witch doctor! Yeah, that's the ticket! Heal fast! Of course (Michael and other doctor-haters, this is for you), no MD who is worth her or his salt will carte blanche prescribe drugs or put you under the knife. He/she will take or read your history, listen to you, conduct appropriate tests and imagery, establish a correct diagnosis, may share with you his or her thinking process, and inform you of the logical, appropriate options--oftentimes it is only too apparent. Get real, Michael Layton, you're afraid of doctors. You need to get over it, and not spread bad info to others because of it. I know the INW med system and personnel, and could help you over here, but it sounds like Zorn is the one in the Sound area. See him sooner rather than later to at least get your diagnosis and know what you're up against. Knee problems should not be put off any longer than possible, but you will be in competition with Zorn's other patients. If Zorn is any good, and it sounds like he is (and hopefully he is covered under your insurance), you probably have a long wait time to get an appt, and you may need your GP or family doc to pull strings to try and get you in to him sooner. IMHO, fuck the chiropracter advice (especially for a knee!). A massage therapist is not appropriate either, obviously. Your orthopedist will zero in on your problem and prescribe the best, most appropriate treatment. That's what he spent the big bucks and all the years in college, med school, and as an intern and resident, and then sharpened his abilities through the experience of years of correctly diagnosing and treating likely thousands and thousands of people using the best that health care has to offer. When you're ready for it, Zorn or whoever you get as an orthopedist will likely know the good PT's around you (your GP may know, for that matter) who are climbers or skiers, to help you the best. It is more important for your rehab that your PT be a climber/skier, so you zero in on the appropriate exercises that may make you stronger than before. Use our great health system to its fullest, and remember that you are your own best advocate when using it. Take nothing for granted, and continue to ask questions. Greg, good luck, and--really--heal fast. --pindude [ 06-20-2002, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by Marty: [QB]Matt, Didn't you buy an Inland NW. Rockclimbs book? It has all the routes (with the exception of the ones at the Golf course) that are even near clean and all are bolted. The cracks and trad climbing could be good but at the moment the are nothing but moss and dirt fests.QB] Marty, This sounds like an obvious troll, but I'll bite. "The cracks...are nothing but moss and dirt fests"--huh? The cracks are not any dirtier than what you would normally find, and are way cleaner than what is on the west side of the Cascade crest. Additionally, the cracks at Banks are not any dirtier than the faces; in fact, when exploring or on newer climbs, I spend more time brushing the faces than I do cleaning out cracks. There are many Banks Lake climbs, both bolted and crack, that ARE clean and are not listed in your book. Banks Lake is a big place, and the climbing scene is relatively quiet. The issue is more that there is not much traffic at Banks, so that even on established climbs including some of those listed in your book, some further cleaning is still appreciated. --Steve

quote: Originally posted by gapertimmy: my protest involved getting some no trail fee stickers and putting them on my truck.. i'm a BAD BOY Now THIS might be a sticker I would put on my rig...where'd ya get 'em timmy? --pindude

quote: Originally posted by Matt Anderson: Thanks, It sounds like there are sea cliff's there? If so, is renting a possibility on the lake. Where are the cliffs that are only accessible by water? matt Lake cliffs, yes, Banks is a 30-mile long man-made lake formed by Grand Coulee Dam. I haven't done any boat climbing there myself, but I'm pretty sure you can rent one out of maybe Electric City or at least the Grand Coulee area. You'll probably want to check it out before a busy weekend. You'll get surf/waves from wind and ski boats, the latter of which is out in force on hot weekend days. INW Rock Climbs does not cover Banks boat climbing; the only reference I've seen is in Climbing #102, article by Dave Whitelaw. He doesn't give much away, says there are about 30 routes on the islands west of Highway Rock, and this was early in the development of this area in 1987. The Whitelaw boat routes don't get much traffic. Consider carrying at least a toothbrush...I typically pack for Banks a selection including a standard painter's wire brush and a small whisk broom, even for established routes as this area is still pretty new. If you're doing some exploring, an essential tool for FA's may be a crowbar for the time-bomb blocks. Look out for fishermen or paddlers down below as they are fairly quiet on the lake. All in all this is a pretty cool place, the views while climbing above the water remind me of the Roger Dean Yes album covers from the 70's. Spokane is another 1.5-2 hrs east on Hwy 2. If you come into town here, one or two climbers at Mtn Gear may know about the routes, but I think your best beta will be in INW Rock Climbs, and Climbing #102 for the boat climbs. Lon of Mtn Goat for sure climbs there, so you if you're in town you'll have to stop in his shop too. If you're staying in the Banks or GC area, you'll have go to the dam and take in the 10 pm laser light and fireworks show. There's not a lot of action in town, but after a few beers it can be pretty dam entertaining. Like Dave says, we're looking forward to a TR. --Steve in Spokane

Matt, The only printed guide is Bland's Inland NW Rock Climbs (http://www.inlandnwclimb.homestead.com/inlandnwclimb.html). Here's the only online info I'm aware of, and it's from the same guide: http://www.kxly.com/outdoors/climbing/ However, Bland in his guide took great liberties with naming routes at Banks, as he renamed most of them, and even some of the crag names. Eventually there will be a new guide for Banks that will be accurate, and more up-to-date. What he calls "Roadside Rock" is actually Highway Rock, where there are the most climbs...my favorites are on the lake (west) side of the rock, and you will find both sport and trad as you walk around Highway Rock from the east side, to the south, and up or down (including rappelling from top-rope bolts, for which you will need 2 ropes) to the west. Some of the lakeside climbs start from the shore, and are 2+ pitches in length. Beware of poison ivy immediately as you leave your car, and also rattlers, especially if you are exploring away from climber trails. There are bats in some of the cracks, as evidenced by guano (one spot on east side of Highway Rock as you go north from road, I don't think 2 climbs there are worth it). Granite is not as sound as L-worth or Index, and most of the climbs are still fairly new, so test each hold and beware the occasional movable big block, including on established bolted routes. I think we'll always be dealing with some "portable" holds at Banks Lk--even after many of the routes get more traffic--due to its relative lack of soundness and the weathering it gets. Other good (from easy to hard) climbing is in Northrup Canyon (Gibraltar Rocks in INW Rock Climbs), south of Highway Rock and along the dirt road directly east of the boat launch and campground. There is an obvious pull-out on the left, with a picnic table and ramp for unloading horses. From there, look on both sides of the canyon...there are more, and a greater variety of, climbs on the rock to the east, which is actually Picnic Table Rock (not "East Gibralter Rock"). The big rock to the west is the actual Gibraltar Rock. Lots of good bouldering around there too. For mostly others' sake, it is not ethical here to have bolts next to cracks (how long will the remaining ones last?), or to write the route names at the base of climbs a la France. Lastly, I just heard that 4 or so of the sport routes you first see at Highway Rock, when walking from east to south, have had the hangers removed. I haven't climbed there since last fall, but am getting rehabbed and am almost back on the horse, so will be out there and will confirm soon. Regardless, you'll have fun there. --Steve in Spokane [ 06-17-2002, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by crazyjz: CFR 1926 requires construction dudes ( and dudettes ) to use full body harnesses, although these are typically clipped in the back. There is no prohibition against a front tie in if the harness is so designed. These laws were designed around extensive testing by the American National Standards Institute. All in all I don't know what to think about all this. We sandblasted all the f&%#$n graffiti off the main climbing walls at Minnehaha in Spokane over the past month or so (enjoy urban climbing on fresh rock next time you're Spokane-way)...one of our main sandblast dudes originally used his construction full body harness to hang from, and he was as uncomfortable as I've seen anyone hang in a harness--he was complaining pretty loudly too. While it may be construction-approved, that doesn't make it comfortable (or maybe any safer?). I'll take a wide-waist-belted good seat harness any day, like a Misty Mtn Caddy, Petzl Gourou, or better yet, a Yates Big Wall or other harness meant to hang out in. --pindude

Okay, this is second-hand, but reliable, and worth relating for this discussion. Two friends of mine were on Liberty Bell this past weekend, and crossed paths with an AAI (the original Am Alpine Inst, not Alpine Ascents Intl) and AMGA-certified guide who was leading another party. According to the guide--my buds didn't ask his name--the AMGA will be releasing a study (whose?) detailing why chest harnesses are dangerous and are no longer to be used, including for glacier travel. The guide says AAI no longer uses chest harnesses. Any AAI, AMGA-certified, or other guides out there who are in the loop and know about this study, or can relate details? --pindude

quote: Originally posted by ryland moore: ...But I still think that we will be forced to deal with this situation in the near future if we haven't already had to do so. For example, when I first started climbing eleven years ago, I was with an experienced guy climbing in the Tetons. As we passed by a small group, not wearing helmets, belaying improperly and using a rope that looked more like a static line or those tree climbing ropes you see foresters using, my partner turned to me and said, we better stay away from those yahoos or they may get us into trouble or force us to have to rescue them. Maybe they were old-school or hard-core, but I have heard many climbers say this when they see someone doing something they shouldn't in the mountains. Is it my job to point out their errors? Or do we continue to "stay away" so that we won't have to deal with a rescue or them causing us harm? What if someone had emntioned in passing to the guys on Hood, "Maybe it is not such a good idea to stay roped up above the 'schrund, or do you think you guys might be a little too close to the party above ya? Or to the guy on the snowboard attempting the descent of Cooper - Are you sure you wanna board down a route you didn't climb first? I have always taken the avoidance, out of sight, out of mind approach, but am reconsidering my actions. So what if the guy tells me to fuck off - I don't know what the hell I am talking about. I will probably never see the guy in my life again. But, what if I say it to a less experienced climber and it makes him pause for a moment to think that maybe he/she is over their heads and is reconsidering their actions. It could prevent an injury. Thoughts? Ryland, your 11 years experience should be telling you those guys in the Tetons were NOT hard core or old school, obviously. When climbing accidents happen, it reflects on all of us who are climbers. Your guide buddy should have said something, as you should be too, without having to mull it over. You called your friend "experienced." How experienced? I would like to believe most of us who have come across gumbies or gumby situations have done the honorable and responsible and have said what needed to be said. As previously mentioned by others on this board, there are ways to tactfully approach other climbers when cluing them in to their misdeeds and potential fuck-ups. Even if they respond negatively--and a lot do--at least you have nothing to regret. Tonight I was getting in some after-work bouldering and saw some high-school age climbers top-roping on static line run through a single non-locking biner connected to a single sling and bolt (many of us have seen worse). The obvious, responsible climber in the group was glad to hear suggestions on what made a safe, bombproof anchor, and we both walked away the better for it, without thinking ill of each other. You shouldn't have to think twice about it: Next time don't think about running away, run TOWARD them and clue them in. --pindude [ 06-08-2002, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by payaso: With this and the accident at Hood today be ready for massive public debate to be brought up regarding the ever recurring 'Who should pay for the rescue' issue. This coverage just precipitates the public perception that climbing is 'crazy' and that climbers should have to pay their own bill for the rescue. No shit, Payaso, you hit the nail on the head. I had just logged off and was about to turn off the tube on my way to bed when an ad for tomorrow night's ABC evening news announces, "Should we pay for climber's rescues?" Truth is hikers, hunters, and other outdoorspeople cost society more for rescues, compared to climbers. Let the debate continue... --pindude [ 05-31-2002, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: pindude ]

Quote: ANAM is going to be a very interesting read this year Unfortunately, the current year's accidents will appear in the 2003 ANAM...ANAM usually does not come out until summer, so we'll have to wait a whole year to read the official reports about the current tragedies. My condolences to those of you who knew any of these climbers, or ever have lost partners, friends or family to a climbing or related accident. And my newer found appreciation to all those who participate in rescues, whether you are a formal rescuer or just happen by and commit to help. --pindude [ 05-31-2002, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: pindude ]

Details still coming in... http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/72460_rainier29ww.shtml

Okay, rightful owner now has his gear back--he taped a sign to a tree near where he lost it. He NOW knows about cc.com. Be careful if you use military camo or olive drab colored stuff sacks for your gear... --pindude

Found tonight, just before sunset, someone's li'l bag o' goodies. You and your buddies were obviously long gone. Name the route or wall I found 'em under, describe the goodies, and I'll be glad to return 'em to ya. --Pindude in Spokane

After my last post, I realized Fuhrer Finger, as well as the DC, have been skied. Although there are spots on each of those 2 routes where I know I'd probably be bootin' it. Here's some more info on the web. from Lowell Skoog: http://www.alpenglow.org/ski-history/subjects/R-frame.html From Amar Andalkar's website:http://www.skimountaineer.com/CascadeSki/Rainier/Rainier.html Don't know if BD's Andrew McLean has anything on it on his site, as he does more of the extreme stuff and I generally can't follow his tracks anyway... -pindude

The Kautz also is skied/boarded somewhat regularly, don't first-hand know of other routes on the south side. I've been up Big R several times but have never skied it, and have a jones to glisse it from the top, too. However, I'm not expecting "happy turns." Nils Larsen, one of my ski hero/mentors, skied the Kautz about 10 years ago saying it was "the hardest thing I've ever skied." The Kautz was also the route of the first snowboard descent by Steve & Terri Mathews, et. al., about 10 years ago or so. I would think the Kautz would be in condition before White River campground opens on the other side of the mountain... -pindude

(Cross posted to Central/East WA Route Reports) There are several issues in the Vantage area being worked out by the FCCC. If you climb out at Vantage, help preserve our access by becoming active in the FCCC, with us working as a group rather than as the mavericks we normally are as climbers... As posted on FCCC this morning by Bill Robins: The falcons are nesting again on "Be a Barbie Doll", Middle East Wall. Robert Kent WSFW has closed all of Middle East Wall and the cliffs below to climbing. He thinks that he may open the east half of Middle East wall after the eggs hatch. Robert will re-evaluate things some time in June. If anyone has any questions or concerns, they can call Robert at 509-765-6641. I suggest calling between 7:30 am and 8 am, he is rarely in his office after 8 am. Bill Robins

There are several issues in the Vantage area being worked out by the FCCC. If you climb out at Vantage, help preserve our access by becoming active in the FCCC, with us working as a group rather than as the mavericks we normally are as climbers... As posted on FCCC this morning by Bill Robins: The falcons are nesting again on "Be a Barbie Doll", Middle East Wall. Robert Kent WSFW has closed all of Middle East Wall and the cliffs below to climbing. He thinks that he may open the east half of Middle East wall after the eggs hatch. Robert will re-evaluate things some time in June. If anyone has any questions or concerns, they can call Robert at 509-765-6641. I suggest calling between 7:30 am and 8 am, he is rarely in his office after 8 am. Bill Robins

quote: Originally posted by Paul detrick: where is it at, this is the frist i've heard of it, I often go to the other you are refering to. Paul Dude, scroll up and check out the top post of this thread...

quote: Originally posted by freeclimb9: Pindude,why don't check out the validity of my notes on history before you accuse me of lying. I don't appreciate the disparagement of my integrity.BTW, with regard to my friends at BD, they well know the history, practices, and limitations of the company. Where do you think I get this "shit" anyways? freeclimb,All I'm saying is if you are going to be a historian, you better be using a bibliography. Referring as a source to your "friends at BD" and some conversation you might have had is nothing but hearsay. Give me a real source. Grade: F, until you provide your bibliography. pindude

Originally posted by freeclimb9:"Iceicebaby, watch out for BD first runs...<snip>...Kevlar accessory cord. Once touted as a miracle fixing line. When it was determined that the core fibers would break into dust with repeated cycling (a couple people had to die first), Chouinard put the stuff up at sale prices rather than make a product recall. I'll never forget that move." pindude, in reply to above: What happened to my request to transcend the bullshit? If you are going to be blaming a company for death, and spray it to the world, you'd better be pretty darn sure and post some believable SOURCES to back your shit up. freeclimb9: "...<snip>...I have friends who work at BD...<snip>" Not any more! pindude [ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ] [ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ] [ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by specialed: Sad bro, sad. Good thing or I'd have to laugh at your ass when I saw you at the crag. I hope you'd be laffin, coz they'd be stuck right on my fat ass next to an embroidered patch of the Wawona Tunnel and the Valley view! -pindude [ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by specialed: This doesn't seem like a fat sellout to you? "Selling" and "sell-out." Two different things, unless you have a different definition of "sell-out." I'd gladly buy up those stickers if I still didn't have so many unused ones dating back to the early 90's. -pindude

quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: No but that is where PP is buried. May he rest in peace. Pinhead - Relax. As far as it being the "same" company I am not familiar with the legalities of the "sale." I wouldn't mind if you filled me in tho. Quote from pinhead <<a suspect and fallacious example.>> It is simply true. Unlike Freeclimb I am reporting something from my direct experience. The representative was a "factory trained" representative form CA. You may think it suspect but your suspicions do not change the facts. I never quoted a mag article. Take it as you will. I would ask, how assuming the example is true, it is fallacious? I guess I should say how is my assertion fallacious or not supported by my example. Sadly they gave me a new blue handled hammer soon its head began to separate too. I myself was once a young climbing goods salesman in the '80s, and still am close to the outdoor retailing world. Then, as today, salespeople--er, customer service people--are "cliniced" by the manufacturer's rep in a large group setting maybe for a couple hours every 6 months or so. They generally are not "factory trained," although if they are, they are lucky dogs. We were never offered Chouinard or BD factory-training, nor am I aware that it was offered to any of the individual employees working in other specialty shops. As far as factory is concerned, maybe a tour if we were in Ventura or SLC after the move, yes, but factory training, no. Suffice to say, the manufacturer spends precious little time teaching salespeople the culture of their company, nor can they afford to. Most of the customer service training of that man/woman or kid on the floor comes from the individual store's management, and the salesperson's own motivation. Regardless, there are always going to be good salespeople and bad salespeople. I think you got a bad one. Your example was not supportive of your argument because you equated the shop's poor salesperson with Yvon, which I think even he would take issue with. You should be able to distinguish between Yvon and his company, and a right- or wrong-headed salesperson on the floor of a retail shop. If I had gotten a second hammer with a separating head, I would have taken that back too and gotten another manufacturer's tool or my money back, which by all rights the store should have done for you. If not, then sometimes it is better to deal directly with the manufacturer to resolve CS issues. Thanks for letting me know you're here, and not really in Bath, England. You got one on me there. I guess Bath, England doesn't equal Federal Way just as that bad salesperson doesn't equal Yvon and his company. For details on the sale, there was a great article by Krakauer appearing in Outside, about when it happened in 1989. I'm sure you'll take great pleasure in noting I can't give you a link to the specific issue and article--Outside online has not archived their mag for issues before 1992. Bottom line, there were 3 lawsuits pending vs. Chouinard Equipment. Each of the 3 had to do with user-error, NOT company error. Yvon took his lawyer's advice to settle each of the 3 pending suits, and separate/protect his real cash cow--Patagonia--by selling majority ownership of Chouinard Equipment. He sold to his employees. Don't know if he still owns a portion, but his employees--with I think Peter Metcalf as head that whole time--have been managing it since, of course having renamed the company Black Diamond. I thought Yvon did a great job of running Chouinard Equipment, and think Metcalf and the employees are doing even better with BD. May PP rest in peace. -pindude

quote: Originally posted by freeclimb9: I don't feel obligated to prove anything to you, pindude. You're skepticism may be warranted, but your manner is crude. For my sake? Don't veil a threat, if that's what that is. FYI, Chouinard never made rope, or cord. They did distribute for Beal. That's probably what's on your hexes. Chouinard Equipment did sell off the kevlar cord back in the day. I don't know what brand cord failed as a fixed line. I never put a brand association with it. But, I challenge you to find anyone who would now reccomend kevlar for a fixed line. Why is that? Hmmmm. Beal's website ( http://www.beal-planet.com) states for Aramide (i.e. kevlar) lines that it "must never be used as fixed line." Why is this statement put on their website? Coincidence? Just one more question for you, pindude, why do you think that BD only sells wired (emphasis on WIRED, not threadable) hexes these days? Love that kevlar! Bring on the libel lawsuits, one and all! "Crude?" How? Because I used words and logic without any neat, nasty words? "Veiling a threat?" Come on. You're projecting now. For the sake of discourse and a good argument, I meant sincerely that I would like you to come up with some solid evidence to back up your statements. I do enjoy a good debate. Exactly what and why are you "challenging?" You completely misunderstand if you think I am going to bat for Kevlar solely because it is still on some of my older hexes which I have kept as museum pieces. Last time I used them? About 10 years ago. I'm fully aware the diamond-C was historically a distributor for Beal rope and cordage. Kevlar was never sold to me or any of my buddies as anything other than cordage to use as slings for our pro. Nobody I ever climbed with has wanted to use Kevlar, or any other 5.5mm static cord for that matter, as fixed line. I recall that once Kevlar was discontinued for improved Gemini cord, climbers bought up the remaining Kevlar as quickly as possible. For hex cordage and V-threads the stuff worked great due to it's stiffer properties: When reaching with a hex I could make higher placements by holding the cord under the hex, and when using it for V-threads didn't usually need to use my ice cleaning tool to snake the cord out thru the second hole. Yes, Kevlar has been improved upon--good for us. Regardless, your argument has turned into a Red Herring. You would be well off to take not only a class in Research, but also Debate. -Pindude "Transcend the bullshit."

quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: Funny thing this thread started with positive comments directed at the old GPIW and related companies. Now it seems as tho the old Chouinard owned company is being slammed and yet the BD defenders think the new company is being slammed. Freeclimb seems to be complaining about the old company. I have virtually no experience with the new BD because of an experience I had with the old company. The old Chouinard owned company, despite the old man's assertions of quality, made some real shit and after knowing it was shit did continue to sell the stuff even after production was discontinued. Eg: the old blue handled piton/ice hammer. I took back a hammer sans head and was told by an employee that they were aware of the problem and going back to wood after their inventory ran out. After hearing that I figured anyone who thinks that YC deserves respect was a total goofball. Imagine selling as an ice tool/piton hammer something you knew had defect that caused it to break. Call me a liar Pindude but in fact it is the truth. It also has nothing to do with the modern Black Diamond. Just adding my rant to the world. While the company may have changed when it went from Chouinard to Black Diamond (and originally was GPIW), and continues to evolve today, it is still the SAME company. At the time of the Chouinard-BD name change, Yvon sold the majority interest to the employees, many of whom are still involved. The only one I called a liar was icebaby, for telling us he lost fingers due to the glove (before he was called on it by Erik, and recanted). Peter, when will you get it? You did the same thing as freeclimb. As I said before, if you are going to spout as "truth" and make claims such as despite "the old man's assertions of quality, (he) made some real shit and after knowing it was shit did continue to sell the stuff even after production was discontinued," then you better back up your claim with more than a suspect and fallacious example. You go on to say that this is true because "I took back a hammer sans head and was told by an employee that they were aware of the problem and going back to wood after their inventory ran out." What employee? Yvon himself or someone else in the Ventura? Or some boarding school-aged newby climber at a shop on your side of the pond who passed himself off to you as a credible representative of Yvon? You, like icebaby, seem to jump to quick conclusions. People with a mind and who think and read posts such as yours will generally treat inflammatory info as suspect unless you can back it up. If you're going to make these types of statements, do your work and give us real evidence. Even a vague reference to Summit, Climbing, R&I, without telling which specific issue, doesn't cut it. No, I'm not going as far as calling you a liar, but without proper proof and reasoning you do also get the following grade: F. pindude "Transcend the Bullshit"