erden

quote: Originally posted by Pencil Pusher: Insofar as "objectivity" and "untainted" are concerned, consider the chain of custody. got your PM; now that I know what you mean by the chain of custody, I agree that the Sheriff's Office should submit the pieces to the lab -- if that is what is decided in the end. I am glad we are thinking the same way - I just did not know the expression for this. Simply put, the sheriff recovered the evidence, they retained the evidence, from them it should go to the lab without anyone else getting their hands on the evidence. Erden. [ 10-24-2002, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Dr.Nil: I would like to emphasize the importance of consulting a neutral, accredited organization for any testing, which may cause irreversible changes in the equipment. Please don't be offended, but such testing does need to be meticulously planned, and executed under laboratory conditions, by an objective party. No offence. Great point. Steve Nagode and I agree. We are not thinking any differently. Legally, we understand that we would not be recognized, and with my involvement, there would be perceived bias in any findings. Just that with all the efforts in the aftermath of the accident, priorities have shifted. We have asked the evidence room at Grant County Sheriff's Office to hang on to the pieces through November, so that we can get our act together. This will ensure that the rope, and the hinged section of the biner will remain "untainted." The nose section of the same biner is with me, and we only did a standard hardness test on it, which involves sinking a point into it with a known load and measuring the depth of the indentation mark that it leaves behind. That is all that has been done, and the marks are very small. We were careful to maintain the fracture surface as we found it, as that will yield many clues on the nature of the fracture. quote: For advice on how to proceed, I would suggest that you please contact the AAC Safety Commission (John E. Williamson) and the UIAA Safety Commission representative in the US (Helmut Microys), who is also an AAC delegate. I don't have their current contact info, but you can surely obtain it through the AAC, by phone 303.384.0110 or fax 303.384.0111 (8 a.m.-5 p.m. MST). Again, a sincere thanks for your efforts, and please continue to be careful. Valuable input again on the contact info. We may as well get in touch with them. I am working with Steve Nagode along those lines as well, and we have identified EN Certified Labs in Europe who can do the complete investigation for us on the biner especially. We have to clear that the batch from which that biner came, as well as the individual biner itself were up to standards. The lab that we intend to use is one that is in England, so that we will not have any language barriers in any report that they may produce. We would be willing to make public that report as well, I think. Erden.

quote: Originally posted by Dr.Nil: I hope your arm is healing quickly, and that you are back climbing soon. My arm needs to be seen by a specialist. Now that the swelling has gone, and the pain has diminished, I was able to flex it to see that there is a significant notch in the triceps muscle closer to the armpit where the rope ran. Above and below the notch is a lump of flesh that suggests perhaps the muscle tore partially and retracted, perhaps it is an illusion to me (?). It is aching when I load it, and it is not 100% in strength. A doc should see the arm after my return from Sweden... quote: I haven't seen anything on how you were attached to the rock. Could this be understood as your actually NOT being attached to anything else than the rope brake? Can you confirm?I was not attached to the rock. I was standing on the ledge. I trusted the stopper that Göran had placed 6-8 feet above me, which popped by the way. Had Göran's fall continued beyond the trail, and had the #2 TCU not held, I probably would have been pulled off the ledge. That I was not tied in perhaps reduced the loads on the top pieces, but I do not recall being pulled up significantly. Erden.

Stefan, you have another chance at living your dreams and to take inventory of where you are in life. Take advantage of this opportunity for the better. Do not forget to Göran-size your dream, whatever it may be. Welcome back from the brink. Erden.

I just got my set today. The set consists of three books, one Accidents in NA, one Journal specially prepared for the Centennial and another titled "A Century of American Alpinism." Erden.

quote: Originally posted by salbrecher: McDonalds Clerk:Would you like that regular or Goran sized? Göran-size burger -- a BIG burger Then were you to Kropp that Göran-size burger, you would bike from home to the McDonald's joint, bike through the drive-thru window, order your burger, and eat it while biking on the way back home Nice imagery... Erden. [ 10-23-2002, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

The evidence room has most of the rope. I have been overwhelmed, and I am leaving for Sweden to attend Göran's services. I return on Nov 12th. Only after that can I carry on with the accident investigation and take further action. I have requested that the Evidence Room at the Grant County Sheriff's Office keep the evidence through November. This will keep the evidence "untainted" in case we need to follow up with an investigation by a certified independent lab, especially of the carabiner that broke. So, let's calm down about Göran's rope, and all we have to say to save other people's lives is "DO NOT LEAD WITH A STATIC ROPE." Period. And if you (Eduard) want to make sure shops sell static ropes in a different manner than dynamic ones, by all means, start the work toward that. No one is stopping anyone from taking action. I would applaud that as a corollary to the lessons learned, and it would make climbing safer overall. In fact, today I will propose at REI that we create a separate display for static ropes so no one is ever confused. Erden. BTW: I see that new posters are getting sloppy with the spelling of Göran's name. Please correct for the umlauts. Cut and paste works just fine. THX. [ 10-23-2002, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by dreaming_tree: There have not been any new postings for some time now, so I wonder if the discussion has moved some where else or if it just has slowed down. Looking forward to the final accidentreport. Hi Mathias; We are still here, will be here, we are not moving anywhere else. Simply, life and responsibilities caught up with me and I could not finish the report. I have to go to Air Guitar and try to find a few more pieces of information soon, then update the info that I have based on the input here. I have gathered a bunch of digital photos with the help of my friend Steve Nagode, and I will include those as well. Once the document is done, before release, I want some outdoor industry peers to look over it for technical accuracy. Following that, Göran's father will receive a copy of it. Only after that, and when we are satisfied, will the preliminary report go public. There is a good chance, we would want an independent lab help with the investigation, so the next step will be up to Göran's father. quote: Now I will take a while to figure out what Göran-size trip I'm going to make to honour his memory! Think big!!! quote: I think that a Memorial Fund (to reward achievements over the usual) might be a good idea!and why not! Erden.

quote: Originally posted by JGowans: Btw, I am in the Mountaineers, and I do plan to take their course this year, but want to be out this winter as much as possible. Cheers, Jason Hey, Jason: I am a member of the Mountaineers Climbing Committee. Send me a PM and we will talk about climbing over a beer. Erden.

quote: Originally posted by Paul detrick: Than some time we need a real eastside pub meeting You call the place, Paul. I will meet you there. I am sure there will be others... Erden.

Good input everyone. Clyde, TomRogers, Chad, and others: you have spent a good deal of time putting this info together, and I need to cross check my analysis with yours. Steve Nagode and I relied on Paul Detrick's numbers for cam locations to generate the fall factors and the impact loads on the #2 Camalot and the #1 Camalot. I am working on a way to present those results in this thread. It has been a bit overwhelming at my end, and I will be compiling a more comprehensive report based on all the imput here and our additional investigation. I need time to cross check the info and to put out an accurate report. I may even have to go out to Air Guitar and look for track marks on the rock for the #3 Camalot and the #1 Camalot for the sake of accuracy... Erden. [ 10-10-2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Don B: I believe the best memorial is an annual Kropp climb of Rainier. Pick a date to meet at the White River Campground, bike there alone, climb together and bike home with new friends who share a common love. There is something in this suggestion that is very attractive... Erden.

quote: Originally posted by Paul detrick: Yes the rope was cut. It was found on the ground after everyone left. Tell me more for clarification, this is news to me! Was the rope cut during the accident, or did the rescuers cut it by taking a knife to it to facilitate preparation of Göran's lifting up to the helicopter? Erden. [ 10-10-2002, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Paul detrick: Clyde nice post, you see it like I do, but I will wait til all testes are done to see if thats true.One thing the #3 was the frist piece to pull, for whatever reason. I don't know how high it was, but no more than his ht. which i heard was 6'4. the #2 could have been 10 to 15 ft. below. Like to keep the facts correct. I like Clyde's post as well. We are documenting all input, and Clyde is not saying anything with which we disagree. Paul: We are relying on your input in the force calculations, and we are using the Petzl fall simulator. The forces are high, and we will document all of that. I am trying to get the digital pictures that we have on a CD to bring them home so I can start the documentation in earnest. Cpt Caveman: I want to post pictures of pro, biners, site, memorial and such, and I need help in posting them... anybody know? How do you post your trip pics? Erden.

quote: Originally posted by Terminal Gravity: Knowing that the rope was static would dramatically reduce my trepidation. Again, I'm sure I'm not alone on this. We will get our hands on the rope along with the rest of the biner. We have to verify the rope type as well in this process of elimination. Let me just say that the forces involved were high. We will be posting a preliminary report on the accident that will eventually be followed by a certified report. Erden.

It was good to mingle with all of you who were there. Thank you. Erden.

While discussing the inscription at the base of the climb, please consider Renata's input as well posted on Kropp Aventyr. "021007 Nepal group Since I left Nepal I have not yet hade any conversation with the group that I originally was leading to Everest Base camp. When I left I made sure that they where properly taken care of with extra staff and sherpas so that they could continue their trek. Just a few hours ago I spoke with our agent, Peak Promotion, and got confirmed that everybody is doing ok. The group is now on their way back to Namche, Lukla and will arrive in Kathmandu within a few days. Unfortunately it seams like not everybody reached Base Camp, but some of those who did, made a small ceremony to remember Goran by. When I was flown out from Tengboche, it was a clear day and I saw some of the peaks that Goran has climbed and some of those that we where hoping of doing together. Right now, I do not know if I will return again, it is hard to imagine being in the mountains without him. In spite of what has happened I still believe that climbing is a safe sport but yes, accidents due happen. I know that Goran would never have wanted anyone to stop climbing because of this. On the contrary, he wanted people to follow their dreams no matter what. Goran may not have been the kind of pioneer that discovered new continents, I believe he did something far greater. He woke the adventurer in each and every one of us, and letting ourselves be the explorer. Today we went to visit the site of the accident. It was a very beautiful place with peaceful surroundings, very much warmth and a fantastic view that stretched beyond eternity. In the rock next to his last route it was carved: Always thumbs up Kropp on Topp! Goran lives The first sentence carries the spirit, the second bears the witness and in the last one lies the truth; Goran lives, do not let him die. Renata Chlumska"

quote: Originally posted by Off White: It might be most appropriate to ride your bike from Vantage to Everest basecamp with the plaque and install it there, since Goran's (sorry Erden, haven't figured out the umlaut thing) legacy is much greater than anything Vantage has to offer. Something like this will happen Off White, just wait for my update. My proposal is in the works for Göran sizing that suggestion. As for the plaque/carving at the climb - that is where he died, and that is where it has most meaning, IMHO. Although he came close, Göran did not die at Everest. Please note that there is a separate chunk of rock, much like a tombstone magically separated from the climbs around it. The inscription is on it, and it looks good. I was the one to go at it with a chisel, I will take the flak for it. I will listen to the concensus before I enhance the lettering. Before forming your opinions, EVERYONE, I invite you to see the place, sit next to that rock and smell the air at the base of Air Guitar. Then tell me what you think. Please do that for Göran. Erden. BTW - you can cut and post Göran from this post... [ 10-08-2002, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by DavidW: Not to fan any flames here........ I offered to help erden carve but am willing to stand down in deference to prevailing opinion. Good man... let all speak, we will go from there. I ask that all go see the lettering under Air Guitar before casting their vote... the vote will be to enhance the letters or not. Nothing more. Erden.

quote: Originally posted by Lambone: Then again, I don't really climb out there, so my opinion may not be worth much. It is a vote, and as long as it is voiced, it counts. Erden.

quote: Originally posted by Mr. Chips: Bill and Erden and Others. I was in no way advocating that the events and details of the tragedy be dropped and forgotten, if you re-read my post you will notice that I support the pieces being put together, I stated it was important. What I was suggesting was that everyone take a breather and step back from the incident itself (while the proper people analyze it) and focus their energy and feelings on Goran himself and what he stood/stands for for many many people. We can all come back later and hear the results of the analysis and determine what we can learn from it, I stated that this is important. Erden, I truly respect the efforts you have made since the tragedy, you have been commended many times already but your ongoing attention and efforts are admirable. I hope this clarifies the statement I previously posted. Point taken Mr. Chips, no hard feelings here. It is all for good, and yes we have Göran size journeys to embark on, and we need to get on with it. In due time... Erden.

quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: In all due respect I think Air Guitar name should rename. May we all think of Göran if we hear or do this climb with a loud nad\or famous guitar riff (which one you may choose in your own mind) since he is a memorable and notable person in history With a memory like that everyone will have a unique but positive thought see Erden. [ 10-07-2002, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

Above I passed on the sentiments of Renata regarding Air Guitar vs. Air Flute. This is not meant to create a controversy. Please voice your opinion regarding route renaming on a separate parallel thread going on now. The reason I posted the conditions: re protocol, tradition, first ascent party, etc was to allow a way out of the potential controversy should it arise. As I said in the other thread, keep posting your opinions there, I will relay the common wisdom to the family. They are kind and genuine people; and they know and respect traditions. Regardless of the concensus, the family and I will refer to the climb as Air Flute from here on among us. Erden. [ 10-07-2002, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

Keep posting your opinions here, I will relay the common wisdom to the family. They are kind and genuine people; and they know and respect traditions. Regardless of the concensus, the family and I will refer to the climb as Air Flute from here on among us. Thank you for having the sanity to move this topic into its own thread of discussion. Erden. [ 10-07-2002, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by erden: Oh, and before I forget, Renata today told me that Göran played the "air saxophone" and that we should rename the Air Guitar route as Air Saxophone. I do not know who the first ascent party is or who named the climb "Air Guitar." Perhaps we could get their blessing to change it to "Air Saxophone." If not a compromise could be "Air Saxophone a.k.a. Air Guitar" Long name there, but I would not want the original name to wither w/o the blessings of the first ascent party. What is the protocol and the tradition in such a case? Lemmeno. Erden. Göran's friend and expedition photographer Kaj Bune tells me that this morning, Renata and the family were talking for a moment about the new name of the route and they agreed that Air Flute is the better one. Göran played the flute in memorial for those that died on Everest in '96 and this seems an appropriate name now. Again, the protocol and the local traditions, along with the effort to reach the first ascent party will be important. In the family's mind and mine, the name of the climb has changed to Air Flute, regardless, as we will remember the accomplished flute player that he was... Erden. [ 10-07-2002, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: erden ]