erden

quote: Originally posted by B.S.'er: Also: The home to home time is much cooler than the car to car time. Sleeping in the back of the car at a trailhead blows. Plus it is not as pure because you are acclimating just like you had made a base camp. Please don't push this line of thinking on yourself. You will not prove anything if you fall asleep on the wheel while driving back to your home from a long climb. Remember Wolfgang Gullich... I have done that many times and survived. It is really not worth it. Erden.

quote: Originally posted by ILuvAliens: ...till we meet up on the other side. How long will they mourn me. Dru is mourning his granma 'cuz she made a difference in his life. Reach out and touch other people, make a difference in their lives, and they will miss you and mourn you just the same. It gives purpose to our lives to think that way, I believe. Time to check our game plan for life. Erden.

Oh, and before I forget, Renata today told me that Göran played the "air saxophone" and that we should rename the Air Guitar route as Air Saxophone. I do not know who the first ascent party is or who named the climb "Air Guitar." Perhaps we could get their blessing to change it to "Air Saxophone." If not a compromise could be "Air Saxophone a.k.a. Air Guitar" Long name there, but I would not want the original name to wither w/o the blessings of the first ascent party. What is the protocol and the tradition in such a case? Lemmeno. Erden. [ 10-07-2002, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Figger Eight: On a similar note we could do Seattle to Rainier, climb it, then ride home Good one! I have not yet climbed Rainier myself!!! I am inviting myself to your party Erden. [ 10-07-2002, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by billcoe: It was the rock. The rock moved. It is quite a hardy piece of rock on either side of the crack there. I guess it may be possible, a small chance perhaps? quote: Originally posted by billcoe: I also want to take a moment to recognise Paul for helping with the process and not simply bootying the pro. Good job to all of you guys looking for answers. I second that. quote: Originally posted by billcoe: If I may take a momemt to clarify how many pieces pulled: Göran pulled out 3 of the 4 cams he had in, a #3 red TCU, a #1 red Camalot, and a #3 blue Camalot. 2nd time you add a #2 yellow Camalot to the 3 listed above, it was the second piece he fell onto, the one "where the carabiner broke, that did its job and stayed in the crack." There is a lot of focus on the broken carabiner, but if I understand this, 1 cam pulled out, then the carabiner broke, than 2 MORE cams pulled out????? I find it suspect that even 2 cams could pull, let alone 3. I am surprised no one else questions this. #3 Camalot at the top which is the first piece to pull is small for the crack according to Paul. He needed a #4. #2 Camalot was placed 6-8 inches into the crack with the first biner getting inside the crack with it, leaving other biner for the rope clip on the edge of the crack. This likely nudged the wiregate open when the biner was loaded by the rope against that edge. We will do some hardness tests on the piece of biner, as we have to rule out faults in the material. We are trying to go by a process of elimination. So are you by suggesting the rock moving... and thank you for sharing. We may never know. #1 Camalot seems to have walked and become parallel to the ground perpendicular to the direction of fall. One of the wires on that Camalot is buckled at the insertion point into the frame of the axles. This suggests to us that when the force was applied, it loaded the camalot parallel to its axles, then torqued it. Once the static friction is overcome with such a rotational motion, the dynamic friction is going to be even less. Also remember that the forces on this unit were tremendous as Göran (220 lbs) had already fallen a significant distance. #3 TCU has a bent axle, suggesting that it did all it could to hang in there, but loosened when the axle was bent and it pulled. By then Göran had arrived at the ledge. We may never know. Standing under Air Guitar today, it looks so unlikely that the rock would move. But then again, all these pieces pulling and the biner breaking all at the same time were so unlikely also Erden. [ 10-07-2002, 03:55 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

I was asked a question today by a good friend of Göran's, also named Göran! They knew each other from their days of service in the Swedish military. He asked me if I would come back and climb Air Guitar. I said "yes" ... then I thought to myself "would you like to Göran size that?" Just standing there and talking to Göran's friend, I said "what if I started by bike from Seattle, carried all my lead gear, rope, etc. with me to FC, lead it, then cycle back with all the gear with me to Seattle?" That would be fitting in our Göran's memory. I have to heal and bike some before I bust my knees half way there... but it will be done. Erden. [ 10-07-2002, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Dru: The next route I put up with a big approach, I will call Kropp Circle. Kropp On Top! I love it, it rocks Erden.

quote: Originally posted by DavidW: erden....... i dont know what sort of memorial you have in mind but i've been an artist and graphic designer for many years with a pretty strong knowledge of typography and design....... I'd be glad to help if your schedule works. I appreciate the offer. I will be happy to hear your input. Maybe we can have a polished granite memorial by the parking lot, by the bulletin board that has his name, and with room to add more, God forbid ! A morbid thought, but it would be nice to do that much like the firemen's memorials are, where all names are chronologically captured. Let me just say that I have the approval of the family and of Renata on what has been done at the base of the climb so far, with their desire echoing mine that it becomes permanent, and not wash off. All I had in mind was to enhance the lettering on the words that I already etched on the rock at the base of Air Guitar. Nothing any more complicated. Perhaps the simpler the better for the man. My thought was to bring a gas generator as suggested earlier to the base of Air Guitar, then work with a Dremel tool to simply enhance the lettering 1/8" (?) so it would not wash off. This would be better than a hammer drill since the rock has some layers close to the surface, and we can get it done with a Dremel without breaking or chipping it... I am told by John Crock that we should gain approval from Robert Kent, the land manager for the FC area before any kind of more permanent memorial is done - this may also include enhancing the lettering. We are working on this and we will know soon. Erden. [ 10-07-2002, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by salbrecher: This past summer a friend and I from highschool, inspired by GÖRANS bike, biked to Golden ears from my home in White Rock hiked it and biked home. Now it was only about 100km bike each way but we kept saying how we were going to be GÖRAN KROPP . Even since last year I have been planning to do a bike trip to Logan "KROPP STYLE"! I think i'll call our Mckinley team "KROPP on top". GÖRANS the man I agree it was a "KROPP STYLE" trip! Hats off to you for doing it... Now you have to "Göran Size" that, and go on a longer trip. Come here and we will go from Seattle on the Cascade Loop with our bikes, carrying all of our climbing gear with us. We will do the Liberty Bell and other climbs at the Washington Pass, then continue on around back to Seattle. Maybe a group of the cc.commers can join us and we can have a party all the way Whatchasay? Erden. [ 10-06-2002, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by jon: I don't want to thread creep here but here is something that I was curious about. I was looking at various local news sources including some climbing websites to see what "news" they had about the accident. In two of the three articles I found they had taken the text directly off this site without referencing the actual source. Now I'm not bent out of shape out of this, but aren't they supposed to do that? Actually, when the US media started wondering, I let Ryan Hayter, Göran's PR guy and his good friend, handle the media inquiries, so that I could get busy with the accident report, and my own grieving. I understand that my accident report first went to the family and to Renata, and I did not post here until I was given the go ahead by Ryan. We had to time it right. It is also my understanding that the same accident report that you see on page 2, without the 10/2/2002 update was then circulated to the media, especially to Outside Magazine, since they had just communicated with Göran (if my account of the events is incorrect, Ryan will let me know...) So, they were referring to my accident report primarily, and they were also made aware of this thread. This may explain the common themes in their reporting. Expect more common themes after the complete accident report comes out. We can perhaps request that they mention cascadeclimbers.com specifically ??? I hope this helps. Erden. [ 10-06-2002, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by pindude: quote:Originally posted by erden: Do they make generators small enough that they can be carried through the gap down to the King Pins on Sunshine Wall? Erden, short answer: yes. Last year with a group of about 4-5, we carried in a gas generator to Palouse Falls to run a couple angle grinders and erase some graffiti. Two had to carry at a time. We took turns, and carried about the same distance you would to carry through the gap to Sunshine Wall, as we carried past the small climbing area to just above Palouse Falls itself. I will get more info (size, make, model, etc.) from my friend who supplied the generator from his workplace, but may not get an answer til Monday. I'll pm you. Cheers for all you're doing. --Steve in Spokane I knew it, CC.com rocks Let me know, and if anyone has a better idea, speak now or hold your breath forever Erden.

Question: Do they make generators small enough that they can be carried through the gap down to the King Pins on Sunshine Wall? Maybe we would have to find one that would be light enough to lower... If not, we may have to drive it to the base of the Sunshine Wall, then bring it up the talus field somehow. I have a Dremel tool, and I can finish the memorial project with some help. I feel that is more appropriate than paying someone to do it for us. If anyone has any ideas on the generator, please contact me. I will stop by a tool rental place to see my options. Then depending on the size involved for the generator, I will seek your help as we may have to gang up on the darn generator! Erden. [ 10-05-2002, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by sexual chocolate: I have a habit of occasionally clipping my qd through a 'biner on my cam sling, which means I have a 'biner through a 'biner. Any chance this might have happened? Would this significantly increase the chance of a 'biner breaking? It seems as though the chances of cross-loading would increase, and now that I think about it, I'm gonna stop doing this, but might there have been such an occurence here? The cams that Göran used did not have webbing, or extra biner on them. He would clip the quickdraw right on the wire of the Camalot. As for clipping a biner on a biner, I think that may be dangerous. Not so much for cross loading metal on metal, but more for increased risk of the gate opening when the system is loaded. You see, we worry so much about the scenario of the gate opening against the rock, we clip the rope in certain well thought out ways. The direction of the clip into the pro and rope into the biner become crucial to have a reliable system. This is the amount of thinking that has to go into placements with links involving only one biner. Now, cross clip biner into biner as you suggest. All of a sudden you have two biners at 90 degrees to each other exposing two gates to the rock. How do you mitigate the risks of the gate touching the rock and nudging open? I would think that the leader's job would be an order of magnitude harder, if not impossible, to figure out which direction to clip each pro... I also vote that you should stop doing that, and clip your draw right into the webbing of the cam, next to the other biner that was on the cam. Erden. [ 10-05-2002, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Off White: What's the trick, do I have to pry off the colon key on my keyboard and re-install it sideways to make the umlaut? Nah, just copy and paste from the above posting... You can do it, you love the guy enough Erden.

One more thing Let's learn and teach how to spell his name: Göran Kropp GÖRAN KROPP Please note the umlauts on the o in Göran. The best way to show our respect to a person is to learn how to spell their name, and how to correctly pronounce it. Göran was prounced as (yo-ron) read as one word, of course, with an r that sounded more like the r in spanish, or italian. Not as many rolls to the tounge, though... It was a prominent r, not the lame inaudible r that we have in English. Yo is the one in "Yo Baby!" Try saying his name with that strong r, then say to yourself loudly: "Kropp on top!" with the same strong r. I guarantee you that you will be smiling Now that you are smiling, would you please go back in this thread to your own postings and update them with Göran where you see your mistake? Thanks, Erden. [ 10-05-2002, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

OK, here is a loser of a web site called EverestNews with their story on Göran. I included the story as it appears on their site today, 10/5/2002. On 10/2/2002, I came across their version of the story, and I asked them to update it based on this very thread on CC.com. The response I got was not I will look, I will investigate, thank you for the suggestion... It was a dismissive, short and unprofessional response that had no interest to find the truth for the fallen. They have elected to not do due diligence, and they have kept the story as is. The world media follows this very thread. If we all have any power at all, it is that the same media will police itself. In fact, I communicated with one Swedish newspaper that had a link to the EverestNews version of the story. I told the newspaper that EverestNews version had gross inaccuracies and asked that they pull the link. They did. They were professionals. They understood accuracy and honesty would get them more traffic, not speculation or BS. It is also my hope that all of you who visit this site know someone with pull by six-degrees-of-seperation. Please keep an eye on everestnews.com, if they do not change their tact soon, the next phase of the "Göran Storm" should hit their shores full on. We should blow their shack to bits, and hit them where it hurts: their pocketbook. I see altrec.com, Clearance Warehouse, Amazon.com, Patagonia in a quick scan of their Kropp page... The sponsors need to know. There must be more sponsors out there, we need to scour the pages of EverestNews site. The sponsors we do not know need to step forward if we do not contact them... If you know anyone at these companies, please direct them to this thread. Thank you. Erden. ----------------------------- The everestnews.com version still not updated 10/5/2002. NEWSFLASH UPDATE 10/1/2002: Goran Kropp has died climbing. Various sources are reporting to EverestNews.com that Goran died climbing yesterday. Renata Chlumska, Goran's girlfriend, and the first Swedish woman to summit Everest, was not with him when the accident occurred. Update: Goran Kropp, 35, died yesterday around 2:30 p.m. rock climbing at Frenchman Coulee's Sunshine Wall on Air Guitar (in Washington State). This is over by the Columbia River in Eastern Washington in Grant Co about six miles north of Vantage Washington. According to a climber who contacted EverestNews.com who was with Goran yesterday. There was 4 climbers including Goran climbing together. They had been climbing most of the day, when Goran was almost at the top of a single pitch climb he took a fall. No one actually saw him fall, but they saw him falling. He was killed on impact, hitting first on a rock ledge and then continued down to the ground. He was only wearing a simple bike helmet according to the climber [However, it appears this was a climbing helmet, just too much for it...]. Goran lived in Issaquah Washington just outside Seattle moving to the United States from Sweden 6 months ago with Renata Chlumska. According to the climber, Goran meet the climbing friends on the internet. According to his new friend Goran did not space his anchors close enough together. So when Goran fell, the rope did not hold. One of the friends was also on the same rope as Goran but the other climber was only a few feet up near the only real anchor that held. One of the climbers went for help only 15 or so minutes away to a cell phone. Help arrived quickly, and one of the other climbers was treated for shock when help arrived. But Goran was gone... Goran was pronounced dead at the scene. [ 10-05-2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by richard noggin: I have witnessed a biner braking just like that one, it was an REI gold. The climber cliped a bolt with the snout hook on the hanger where the gate hooks in making an open gate and a lever action. His waist was two feet above the bolt. I heard a ping of the biner braking... This is one of the scenarios that we are considering. It would take only about 400 lbs to break a biner in the manner you describe. In this case, Göran's harness may have grabbed the biner's nose, or the biner may have inverted in the webbing loop of the draw hanging by the nose. We think both are unlikely, though not impossible. We will try to deduce if that is the case, by pulling on some biners with the loop end of the #2 Camalot, while measuring the force applied. We will load it to 500lbs, look at the biner surface for wire markings, then keep increasing the load, until we score the surface of the fresh biner just like that biner that remained with the #2 Camalot. You see that biner has the patterns of the Camalot wire scored on it now!!! An indirect way, but it will tell us if this was a pull on the nose of the biner, or an open gate failure by the rope at the bottom of the biner, or a closed gate biner. We do not think that it was a closed gate failure from the fracture surface. We have to think the test protocol through, and do it once to collect most data. We will touch base with other experts to make sure that we are on the right track... More on this after the analysis later this week... Erden. [ 10-05-2002, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Mr. Chips: Gaper Alert!! Have you no shame, no respect. Goran would want people to be celebrating his life and their own lives at this moment. He would want everyone to reflect on what is possible in life and to reflect on what he has taught others. He would want to be remembered as a unique individual with a passion for living and experiencing all of his dreams. Some of you have expressed these feelings, I see that. But Goran would NOT want you to be hovering like ghouls over the details of his death. Let the proper authorities work out the scenario and it's tragic details. Until then, step back and give the guy the REAL attention he deserves. The investigation is important for various reasons, I understand this, but this is TOO much already. I know, Chips. I get your point. We will wrap this up in a week's time. Let us finish what we started. It has to be complete, and it has to be submitted with complete details to Göran's family, to Renatta, to the Grant County Sheriff's office and to Accidents in NA. Were it not done in the open, believe me, you would not have been any happier. Please remember that this thread is the authoritative thread worldwide. The US media, the Swedish media, and now the Turkish media are all converging on this site. This site will see more traffic to learn about the accident and that is unavoidable much like life is. We will get on with it, I myself feel obsessed with this right now, sorry. I will have a few follow up tasks for everyone, if you care to return to this thread after next week, like starting an email storm all over the world, a "Göran Storm" to get everyone to read Göran's book. Then everyone has to get on a "Göran Size Journey" of their own. We dream it then tell each other about it. Physical, adventure, career, anything... If anyone comes up with a trip and we think that it is not worthy of Göran's name, we will ask them to read Göran's book again !!! Whatcha say, Chips? Erden. [ 10-05-2002, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Fredrik Larsson: A Swedish evening paper published this picture of the broken carabiner this morning: Here's a link to the full article (Swedish), My thoughts to Görans friends and family, and to you Erden who is doing a great work trying to clarify this tragic event. Peace Everyone! We now have the rest of that biner! My girlfriend Nancy, and my coworker from REI, Steve came with me to the accident site today. Some gentle soul had already placed a candle on the rock under Air Guitar. Also a piton was nailed in that rock, with the words "In Memory of the Fallen" scraped on the same... We had run into Officer Brent Mullings from Grant County Sheriff's Office on the way to Air Guitar, and we were all happy to exchange information. I had left him a message the day before, and had wanted to meet him in the afternoon after we got done with Air Guitar. I gave him a copy of the accident report as it appears here with the 10/2/02 update. We showed him all the gear involved with the accident to help him with his investigation. We promised that all we find will be on this site, in this very thread, pictures and all. There was mutual trust and goodwill all around, and everyone was very appreciative. A special time, a special place. Göran's presence is heartfelt by everyone, and all try their best. That man made a world of a difference and some of us were privileged to notice that before his death! Officer Mullings had to leave having collected additional information and pictures for his investigation. After an hour of healing time, we systematically and logically searched the area, marking off areas with surveying tape... We were looking for the missing bit of the carabiner. All along I was saying in a whisper "come on Göran, help me here!" After about a couple hours always worrying about shifting talus that may bury the piece ever deeper, I came across the nose of the biner in plain sight, on a small dirt patch among all the rocky talus. It was as if Göran hand placed it to help me find it. Then we went to town, all smiles. We met Paul Detrick who had retrieved the #2 Camalot and the #2 TCU from the accident site. They have preserved the pieces as good as any investigative reporter, and we are indebted to them for their diligence in letting us put the pieces together. We learned a great deal about how the #2 Camalot was placed, and about the rest of the climb. My friend Steve from REI is an excellent engineer who works in the REI Test Lab. He has busted more biners in the lab than any one of us would ever want to on our climbs. He knows his biners, old and new. With one look at the piece we found, he was rattling off possibilities. Steve has ideas to prepare a test protocol that we will use to pull other biners. We have signs on the biner and other gear that can help us indirectly deduce the forces involved. We will try, and we hope to be successful. For that, we will seek Renata's permission to use the rest of Göran's quickdraws... Then we stopped by the hardware store, and went back to the site. The same chunk of rock on the ledge that has the piton in it actually looks like it does not belong there. As if placed after the fact, a perfect memorial. Others had mentioned a memorial first. First individual to die at Vantage, and it is Göran. I was overwhelmed. I had to mark it down. Göran used to say "Kropp on top!" and he would show a thumbs up with his right hand as he said that. He always had to come up with some quip like that that rhymed. I was calling Ryan Hayter, Göran's friend for his birthdate and Ryan asked "are you going to chisel a thumbs up?" Well, I said, I know my letters, and it had to ryhme!!! So I etched: With a thumb up, "Kropp on top!" Göran lives 1966-2002 While chipping away, John Crock, FCCC President walked in on us. Hearing us chip, he had thought we were hand drilling a bolt When he found out what we were doing, and saw the concept, he said that no one had died in FC in 20 years and that a memorial was appropriate. So I am going to work with him to bring a stone carver who can do tombstones and try to carve the letters a bit deeper so they do not wash off... After that we descended to the trail, and restored the climber's trail where Göran layed to its state prior to the accident. When we were done, a bird came and landed on the same spot, stayed a couple seconds and took off. Sun was setting at the same time. I felt as if Göran waited for me there. He waited for me to come, to find the biner piece, to tuck him in. Then he would go away like a setting sun. "Farewell Göran," I said to myself watching the setting sun with Nancy. We were both in tears. It was all for healing, and Steve has been so supportive today, seeing us through. I will gather an update with pictures. I will post it on this thread at the end, then update the accident report on page 2. I will pull the updates back together and write a whole report that will also be submitted to Accidents in North America. Some lessons may be included in there that will draw from some of the comments and questions in this very thread. This may all take another week's time... You have all been most gracious by attending this thread. May Göran's blessings be on all of you... Erden. [ 10-05-2002, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Paul detrick: The #2 was set well,yes it could have been pull in to the side of the crack and the gate open,thus making it fail. I have not been back, but if I get some time I will look for the rest of the biner. Im glad you are working thru this, and wish you the best. I don't know who said it but they were right, things like this make me more aware that I need to watch what I'm doing. PEACE Paul, we need to preserve the evidence. *the position of the Camalot, *relative location of the broken biner wrt the rock, *the angle of the quickdraw relative to the rock, both in direction and in orientation, *fraying in the webbing of the quickdraw that may suggest that the webbing actually was caught on the biner hook, between the gate and the hook, *markings and indentations on the carabiner that was on the #2 Camalot - the Camalot had wire that would have scored the biner, hence knowing the surface hardness of the biner, we can roughly estimate the load that was applied on it. This would tell us when the other biner broke, perhaps, *axial tearing of sheath fibers suggesting the rope caught the nose of the biner, *and more data we do not have the wisdom to collect, but that we may be able to deduce with retaining the evidence carefully. I will attempt to find the other half of the biner tomorrow morning. I will also reach the sheriff's office to at least photograph the biner part in evidence. I am hoping that no one touched the fracture surface as very valuable information will be gathered from the grain patterns on that surface. We also have to carry out hardness tests on that piece. We need to compare the broken spine of the cam to an unloaded one: if curved it could be an open gate failure; if longer, it could be a closed gate failure. The other data that I will seek from the sheriff will be related to the rope. It felt like a dynamic 10.5x60m rope. Just have to confirm make, etc. Please contact me regarding the pieces that you removed from the wall. I am completing the picture for Göran's father. Thank you for all the help. Erden. [ 10-05-2002, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by russ: I was hestitant to bring this up out of respect for a fellow climbers death and the grief of his friends,family and climbing community, but there's been enough other sidebars so I will. It took awhile for it to register, but the almost exclusive use of camming devices on the pitch is something a couple of my partners and I have talked about over the years. I tend to protect like Goren did, plug the cams - fast, usually solid. Where my buddies prefer using mostly chocks, or at least as good mixture (I'm talking where you have a choice between 2 acceptable placements). The discussions have influenced me, because I've noticed that I've purposely mixed pro more in the last couple of years. I can't help but wonder what a solidly place chock higher up would have done? [it's been a few years since I led Air Guitar and my memory of the crack has faded - it's probably mostly parallel sided...] Russ: This is a legitimate and a relevant question; have no fear. Perhaps the #1 Camalot would have stayed had the placement been in a constriction in the crack. #2 Camalot did stay, except for the biner. Goran did have chocks (wired nuts) with him, however shortly after the start of the climb, the crack widened enough to warrant the use of larger camming devices. Had the biner not broken, and the #1 held, he would have survived. The #3 TCU possibly would not have saved him even if it did stay in the crack, as there was already too much rope out. Erden.

quote: Originally posted by fixedPin: Another question i would like to raise is the helmet. It looked like a bike helmet when we were climbing, but it was a Meteor climbing helmet. The helmet was destroyed. Not that it would have helped in such a fall, but don't think a climbing helmet should end up in a half dozen small pieces after a fall. Below are the picture of the helmet, and a link to the Petzl product page. The helmet had a styrofoam lining and a plastic shell on the outside. After the accident, the more rigid plastic shell had separated from the styrofoam, and chunks of styrofoam were strewn about. It is my speculation that the styrofoam got pressed between Göran and the outside shell, therefore popping the shell off the styrofoam lining core of the helmet, and destroying the lining. The fall was so high off the ledge, and the impact so powerful that perhaps only a Kevlar military helmet would have worked, which would have transferred the impact to his spine. The result I am afraid would have been the same. Erden. Petzl Meteor Helmet [ 10-05-2002, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by jon: ...the reality is that even a world class climber who may seem immortal to many can die at a place as benign as Vantage. How true, and how human. E.

quote: Originally posted by proper: Erden wrote: "Just before I looked down to my feet while belaying, I saw him near the top, with a piece of protection by his foot. " Has anyone considered the notion that Goran might have accidently kicked/knocked his last piece of pro when falling....might explain why that piece came out. I think the one that I saw is the next to last piece (#2 Camalot) that actually stayed in the crack the biner of which broke. It is certainly possible that he may have kicked the last one at the beginning of the fall... [ 10-02-2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Paul detrick: the #3 would have been the top peice up by the small ledge which is where the climb gets wide, above this you would need a #4 or big hex(#11) it would seem this peice pulled and than the biner broke on the #2. This peice was set great, I would have done the same. This peice was five to ten feet below the ledge. Question: how was the #2 placed? would the biner that broke at the end of the quickdraw been pulled onto an edge? anything obvious that would have pulled/pushed the gate open? Another question: have you looked for the missing bit of the biner? I understand the sheriff has the wiregate and the stem, and not the nose and the hook. Erden.