erden

quote: Originally posted by nwclimber: Erden if it is possible for you to obtain counciling, it would be good for you, just as it would for anyone who has gone through such a traumatic event. I am fortunate. I was accepted into the Seattle Mountain Rescue group a couple weeks ago, and they have come forward saying they encounter this kind of emotional trauma on a regular basis, and that they are equipped to help. My friends in the Seattle Mountaineers Climbing Committee have been most helpful. American Alpine Club Cascade Section has sprung into action to reach me. My judo friends at my former dojo have welcomed me back when I wanted to mingle amongst them. Many white and green belts that I left now have black belts! Kinda like seeing kids grow when you leave for a while I have received many emails from friends from this forum, whom I have not yet met. Participating in this forum has been a healing process. Friends, climber or not, who heard through the grapevine, and lately via the newspapers have come out of the woodworks to connect. My work buddies in the climbing department at the Seattle REI have embraced me and made me feel at home. My father, my first hero in life, a former general, who introduced me to climbing at age 11 told me that when the cavalry would fall off the horse, they would shake the dust off, and get back in the saddle. He understood my sorrow, and also my passion for the sport, providing fatherly concern along the way for my safety and advice to be careful. Last but not the least, I have my girlfriend who is also a climber, and a counselor who is the best support that I can ask for. I am in good hands. I will be fine. Thank you for the concern. Erden. [ 10-02-2002, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Lambone: Erden, What's up with the arm wrap? Was it just some sort of strange natural reflex inorder to take in slack, or something else? Well, this arm wrap belay is a new thing we teach at the Mountaineers, NOT! It is in the report, and no, the arm wrap was not a planned action, nor had I trained myself to do it. When Goran started to fall, as straight as the line was, the rope started coming down in front of me. I had to gather up the slack. I had no time. I did not have the option to yard up my hand on the belay side, I think I pulled some rope through with one extension of the right arm. Also I had to get down as fast as possible to lower the belay device. I have a scraped knee from the knee drop, that was intentional and a reflex! At the same time, I leaned forward with the ducking to avoid getting hit. I must have tried to push the lead line down further with my left arm, and somehow as the rope went tight, it snaked its way up my arm. The friction of the complete loop around my arm took the brunt of the tension in the lead line. The remaining tension that transferred to my belay device was not noticable. Initially since I did not feel much on the belay hand, I thought wow, the pieces pulled like they came out of butter! Obviously, I was too overrun by the rush to realize the severity of the left arm injury explaining "arm-wrap belay." I hope this helps. Nothing intentional, except that I must have reached for the rope and as I leaned forward, it aligned my arm with the rope as it pulled tight... Erden. [ 10-03-2002, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

Lambone, Fence Sitter, nwclimber: I remember the rope to be a dynamic rope of 60m length. Goran did not remark otherwise. I think of static lines to be a bit more stiff to handle and this rope fed smoothly. I do not have the rope to check its tags at either end, if they are still there. I would like to argue that Göran was experienced enough not to lead with a static line. The common wisdom would be to haul/jug with a static line and to lead with a dynamic rope only. I was belaying with a Petzl Reverso. The belay action was delivered by the one loop around my arm, and I did not feel much pull on my belay device. This is in the accident report dated: 10-01-2002 06:32 PM. I updated that at the end, and as new information arrives, I will add to it. Erden. [ 10-07-2002, 04:16 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: Hey Erden, Tell me this.. are you the dude I met on 8 mile buttress this spring or not? Someone told me that was you Yes, that would be me. Erden is my first name, and Eruc is last.

I have posted this update to my earlier full report, posted 10-01-2002 06:32 PM. I will keep updating it as we gather more information, to provide a one-stop review. 10/02/2002 Update on Gear Involved: Fellow climber Paul Detrick gathered two pieces from Air Guitar on 10/1/02. A #2 Camalot was near the top of the climb, that had a quickdraw clipped to it that was missing one carabiner, the one through which the rope would be clipped. The quickdraw had one Camp wiregate carabiner remaining on it, identical to the one found broken below the climb. Therefore, consistent with the size of the climb that widens from a finger crack to hands to fist, the pieces involved in the fall in sequence from the top down were: ·#3 blue Camalot that has a frayed trigger wire and the unit is somewhat distorted. ·#2 yellow Camalot, where the carabiner broke, that did its job and stayed in the crack. ·#1 red Camalot that has stripped cam surfaces ·#3 red TCU the cams of which do not have the kind of surface damage that would compare to those on the red Camalot. ·#2 yellow TCU that stayed in the crack and low enough that it probably did not take any load in the fall except after Göran reached the climber’s trail. ·one small nut, first piece that popped when the lead line went tight. Carabiner failure may be due to a preexisting fault in the carabiner, or due to an open gate during the fall. No data is available on the fracture surface of the broken carabiner until that surface is properly investigated. Tensile tests on the lot of wiregate carabiners that Goran was using may be possible.

quote: Originally posted by mbcracken: Eruc, you are a brave hero for sharing these incredibly tough experiences. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help yourself and/or Goran's friend and family. I do live close to Isssaquah. Mike I am no hero, I am just trying to do my best to ensure that accurate information is available. This is the least that I can do to honor my friend. I am doing better compared to the day of the accident and Tuesday. It will take a while to become whole again, as I lost a big part of me on Monday. I must have matured 10 years at a great cost that day. I am too sad... It is healing to try to sort things out and to try to get back into a normal life. Media is interested in the details and while I try to direct them to this thread, it remains challenging. I am grateful for the restraint displayed on this thread that honors Göran and tries to resolve the mystery surrounding the accident. Thank you to all of you. Erden. [ 10-07-2002, 04:12 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by iain: Is this the one? Closed gate strength: 25kN Open gate strength: 10kN Minor axis strength: 8kN I think yes. His pieces were plain aluminum with no color treatment. Erden.

quote: Originally posted by kevin: I am a grad student at WSU in materials science and I have access to all kinds of failure analysis tools and techniques and I could determine what initiated the failure (overloading or material defect) of this carabiner with a couple days work. Erden, if you are interested, please let me know and I would be happy to do this work. Kevin, thank you for offering to help. It would be useful to actually see the fracture surface of the broken piece. We may be able to tell from oxidation if there was prior damage already on the biner. It would also tell us whether the material was brittle or plastic during the fracture from the grain distribution and fracture lines. To get a sense of biner strength, it would be useful to test two biners out of the lot that Göran carried, one open gate, and closed gate, respectively. If you need mroe statistical data, we can test more biners perhaps... Göran had a collection of such quickdraws. Please contact me by PM to coordinate this and my email is also in my profile. Erden. [ 10-05-2002, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Lambone: I would gues that the biner had broken somewhere along the "aluminum" stem or near the "nose." Typicaly the wires are made of steel and are the strongest part of the biner. Especialy on these tiny lightweight biners like Camp and BD Nutrinos. I may be wrong...erden? I will investigate this about the wiregates, I do not know for sure. Old school biners had their gates as their weakest part as I remember. Another possibility is that the gate was caught against the rope, or rock and it did not lock into the notch in the nose. This would have left an unsupported hook instead of a closed carabiner that we would normally expect. It would then be easier to break that hook... We are speculating, and it will be hard to tell until we actually see the pieces involved. Erden. [ 10-02-2002, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

People; Please! This thread is about Göran and his legacy. Let us not bring our secondary emotions into it. I voiced a similar sentiment as Dwayner at the hospital in Yakima to my friends involved at the accident who had come to pick me up. I said: "I would understand if this happened on K2, or on some remote mountain, but on a freken Vantage Climb?" So, let's calm down please. Erden. [ 10-05-2002, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Paul detrick: I pulled two pieces of gear from the route today. There was a old number 2 camalot near the top of the climb, it had a draw with ony one biner. If there was a broken one at the botton, I would say that it failed. The tcu had the same draw. Camp Thank you, this answers some of the questions that I had about the number of pieces, and the pro associated with the broken Camp wire gate. Göran had Camp wire gates with short black stiff draws. So the pro on the climb were: a small nut #2 yellow TCU #3 red TCU #1 red Camalot #2 yellow Camalot #3 blue Camalot Paul - it would be nice to gather all the additional pieces you pulled along with mine. I have to have my story complete to share with the family. They know a great deal already with the accident report and I would like to provide a better explanation as to why the pro did not hold. This investigative approach is necessary as difficult as it is for all involved. [ 10-05-2002, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

Here is my accident report. It has been shared with all parties involved. Erden. ------------------------ A tragic death Göran Kropp, my hero, has passed away in my presence on Monday September 30th, 2002 around 14:40. It was a sad day for humanity. We lost an exemplary human being who had impacted the lives of many of us. That Monday was the first time that we were going to go climbing together. We had talked about this for about a year, and given his busy schedule, we had not been able to connect. I had been talking about climbing with my friend Marcus Hysert, and we were undecided about where to climb that day. I invited Göran Kropp and Richard Murphy as well, pending confirmation on Sunday evening as to the location. Given the iffy weather forecast, we chose to go to Frenchman Coulee near Vantage as it is usually dry there. I drove with Richard and Marcus in Richard’s car to meet Göran at 10:00 at the lower parking lot by the bulletin board and the portapotties. When we arrived, the Coulee was deserted and Richard’s was the only car on the parking lot. We waited until about 10:20 and I asked Richard and Marcus to get started on their climbing, and that I would wait for Göran a few more minutes. We agreed that I would join them by the Sunshine Wall area. Göran arrived around 10:40 driving like a madman down the winding pavement. He charged out of his car, apologizing profusely. I had no problems, just wanted to finally be with him to climb. As we were packing to get on the climber’s trail to the Sunshine Wall, he was telling me that he had to respond to the Outside Magazine that morning. The magazine wanted pictures from him for a feature article that was going to cover his upcoming expedition to trace the US borders in North America next year. He does not cease to surprise me, I thought. I asked if he needed a partner… He kept talking to me about this next project. He was excited, he wanted to share, he wanted to tell me that he and Renata, his girlfriend, would start in the Northwest in Fall, follow the Pacific Coast in a folding double kayak. They would fold up the kayak at the Mexican border and carry all 32 pounds of it along the Mexican border. He was planning to cover the desert in winter. Then when they arrived at the Gulf of Mexico, they would get back in the kayak, around Florida up to Maine. I had to ask: “so will you do the northern border too, you are not going to carry the kayak again, will you?” The answer was, yes he would carry it, and that he would actually need it on all the waterways and lakes that are on the northern border with Canada… Göran and I had connected ever since I met him in Seattle during a slide show that he gave about his extraordinary trip from Sweden to Everest and back. He carried all the necessary gear and food for the climb on his bicycle to the base camp of Everest. He did summit Everest and helped in the tragic rescue efforts on the mountain as they unfolded that year. I had already read Göran’s book and I wanted to talk to the man, to find out what it took to pull off such a daunting challenge. He was most approachable, he listened to me, and he encouraged me to take on my own projects. He was a true hero all along. We wound our way down to Sunshine Wall. When we found my friends, Marcus was leading Air Guitar (5.10a) in the King Pins area, and Richard was belaying. Göran and I decided that we could climb right next to my friends and keep the group together. After all, we all wanted to expand our circle of friends for future climbs. We started with bolted arêtes to get comfortable with each other. Göran had said that he had been to the area only a few times before, so I was opting to belay him and to have him enjoy the climbs. We would pull the rope, and I would lead it also. Among others, we did lead Whipsaw (5.9), and top roped Pony Keg (5.10a), a crack climb right next to Whipsaw. Göran looked solid and strong in the crack as I was belaying him. When he came down, Göran said he felt challenged in that crack and we talked about how we should go on a Yosemite road trip to get him to become a crack climbing expert. By this time, Air Guitar (5.10a) was the only climb left accessible from the ledge on which we were standing. Richard and Marcus were already climbing to our right around the corner, visible from our ledge. We considered moving next to them. Somehow, Göran accepted to lead Air Guitar. I did not object, as this crack climb is one of the better climbs in the area with clean rock that will take protection well except for the very top. Guidebook said that there is supposed to be a bolt at the top to supplement gear placements. Göran started climbing, and I belayed him using a Petzl Reverso. He placed a small nut then what seemed like a #2 yellow TCU. The other gear that I could identify after we left the scene included a #3 red TCU, a #1 red Camalot, and a #3 blue Camalot. I am not certain if he placed any more gear. Just before I looked down to my feet while belaying, I saw him near the top, with a piece of protection by his foot. He had to have been about 20 meters up on the climb. We were using a 60-meter rope and earlier in the day, had plenty of extra rope when we rappelled from the anchors of the climbs that we were doing. Then I heard a commotion above me. Göran was falling. He was falling and I saw his first piece pull. His rope went slack. My instinct was to duck and I crouched low into the corner to take up the slack. I think I pulled some rope through the belay device, but I am not sure. I did throw my left arm into the lead line to press it closer to the ground as I did crouch. It wrapped my arm once, caught my left biceps and cinched it. I was not wearing a shirt. It appeared after the fact that the belay action was delivered by the one loop around my arm that resulted in a full circle rope burn with trauma and I did not feel much pull on my belay device. I heard him impact just behind me on the 2-3 meter wide shelf, and then there was silence. It all happened very quickly. I looked up and there was only one piece left on the climb, the #2 TCU. All other gear had pulled in sequence as he came down. The rope went from me to the TCU, and then down to Göran who was now laying on his back on the climber’s trail below the King Pins. I got off the belay. I could not see Richard who was belaying Marcus who was half way up another climb to climber’s right with respect to me. I yelled to Marcus to immediately lower and help me. When I descended next to Göran, his helmet had shattered and was not on his head. Given the amount of blood on the talus and the severity of the injuries, I have no doubt that he died on first impact with the shelf. I had just received training as a Wilderness First Responder. I knew the drill. There was mechanism of injury for intra cranial bleeding, for spinal injury, for severe trauma on all organs. I had to restore breathing, I had to restore pulse, I had to stop the bleeding. After a while, I was applying CPR with my right arm only, as my left arm had become useless at this point. Positive pressure ventilation did not help. Richard pulled me away from Göran and started to tend to me. I wanted to go back, plug his bleeding but it was the most helpless situation. I thought I was trained, ready to care for anyone and reality was in front of me. I was experiencing Acute Stress Reaction. My hands, my chest, my face, my temples were all tingly; my hair was standing on end. I was getting dizzy. My left hand was going numb at the same time. I deduced that was due the trauma to the left arm, but why was my right hand also mirroring the same symptoms? I was hyperventilating, and Richard kept talking to me. He took my pulse. He made me lay down behind a rock so he could attend to Göran, asking me to take slower breaths. I felt helpless and weak. Marcus had run up to the parking lot, found other climbers and placed a call to 911. Soon a gentleman arrived who said he was trained in first aid. I told him that I was OK, that Richard and I had cleared me for spinal injury, that I had no impacts, no falls, and no mechanism of injury that I could tell for vital organs. Soon after that, a team of Fire Rescue folks arrived on the scene. Then, Sgt Andrew Quen arrived by a military helicopter from 54 Med Co out of Ft Lewis, WA. The crew of that helicopter hovered over us repeatedly: they first lowered Sgt Quen by cable to assess the scene of the accident. Their decision was to hoist me up with Sgt Quen, to buckle me in, to lower Sgt Quen back down, then to lower the litter, to pick up the litter after Göran was secured, then to finally pick up Sgt Quen. The crew of that helicopter was doing the most dangerous thing for a helicopter, hovering over us. I told Sgt Quen to not take any additional risks, that I could walk out on short rope. He convinced me that I should ride with them. After all was said and done, given my mental condition after the accident, I understand that he was right. Monday was a sad day for humanity. I lost a friend. I lost my hero. CONCLUSION: I am estimating that the accident happened around 14:40 at Frenchman Coulee, in the King Pins area of Sunshine Wall on Air Guitar. The cause of death was falling on rock due to multiple protection pieces that came out of the crack. There was severe trauma to head, spine and internal organs. Coroner’s report says: “Severe Head Injuries, due to Blunt Force Trauma.” I was unable to restore Göran’s breathing, nor his pulse and had to stop around 15:00. When Richard checked the time, it was 15:11 at which time Richard assisted me away from Göran and laid me down. One Camp wire-gate carabiner had sheared next to the stem and was found on the scene. I am not certain if any other pro was attached to that quickdraw. The Grant County Sheriff has kept that hardware as evidence. I have a nut, a #3 TCU, a #1 Camalot and a #3 Camalot that I have identified as the gear involved in the accident. 10/02/2002 Update on Gear Involved: Fellow climber Paul Detrick gathered two pieces from Air Guitar on 10/1/02. A #2 Camalot was near the top of the climb, that had a quickdraw clipped to it that was missing one carabiner, the one through which the rope would be clipped. The quickdraw had one Camp wiregate carabiner remaining on it, identical to the one found broken below the climb. Therefore, consistent with the size of the climb that widens from a finger crack to hands to fist, the pieces involved in the fall in sequence from the top down were: ·#3 blue Camalot that has a frayed trigger wire and the unit is somewhat distorted. ·#2 yellow Camalot, where the carabiner broke, that did its job and stayed in the crack. ·#1 red Camalot that has stripped cam surfaces ·#3 red TCU the cams of which do not have the kind of surface damage that would compare to those on the red Camalot. ·#2 yellow TCU that stayed in the crack and low enough that it probably did not take any load in the fall except after Göran reached the climber’s trail. ·one small nut, first piece that popped when the lead line went tight. Carabiner failure may be due to a preexisting fault in the carabiner, or due to an open gate during the fall. No data is available on the fracture surface of the broken carabiner until that surface is properly investigated. Tensile tests on the lot of wiregate carabiners that Göran was using may be possible. [ 10-05-2002, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

I was flown out with Göran. I will post more details soon. Erden. [ 10-05-2002, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

This is true. I was Göran's belayer. He was within feet of the top on Air Guitar when he fell. The rope went slack, then started to rip the gear. The entire chain of pro that he had placed up to that point ripped. He impacted the shelf from which I was belaying. Then continued to fall onto the talus another 25 feet. The one piece that remained in the crack pulled him from the talus back onto the climbers' path. He was dead on first impact, he did not suffer. I lost my hero yesterday. It was a sad day for humanity. I ask that please let us talk to the family, and contact all next of kin before any frenzy is created over this accident. Thank you. Erden. [ 10-05-2002, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by ILuvAliens: erden. Thanks, I won't take it personally. And no I would not want anyone above me on the Cleaver, or bellow me for that matter. We know this is unreasonalble. However, I would let a party pass if we were slowing them and others down. The idea is to move fast through the Cleaver. Spending as little time in the dangerous area as possible. Having groups stack up behind another is part of the problem. We let a party pass us as well that day. I see it like: I would rather pull over for 10 seconds let a party by with thanks, rather see them knock one down in haste as they try to pass. It is what this post is about. Not being selfish. I tend to be very courteous in the Mountains. If your on my tail. I'll let you pass. If you want to climb the route I'm on, I climb it once and be off. I don't think we are really arguing here. And I get your point. I don't think I will climb the Cleaver agan. Point taken, ILuvAliens. No argument here, you have won me over. I hope to meet you in the mountains one day soon. Erden.

It is a fact of life that, while ice climbing, we shatter the ice and drop chunks from above. That is why we set up the belay stance to one side of the line of ascent itself, or lead off at an angle initially to protect our belayer. Chunks in Water Ice climbing are unavoidable. In deciding to get on an ice climb on which there already are climbers, I would try to see whether I would be subjected to chunks of ice flying at me or my belayer. I would try to avoid them by starting 50 feet or so to either side of the other party ahead, taking into account the slope of the terrain that may direct the chunk at an angle toward me. Therefore, I would not be approaching right under the other party on water ice, nor would I be caught at the same belay station with them for the same reason - this works well on large flows like Weeping Wall. Passing the other party is a moot point if I practice safe climbing on water ice and protect myself and my belayer from falling ice. If the approach to the belay station is safe and we do end up at the belay station together on tighter ground, the party ahead of me has the call to let me pass or not, and if it is so unbearable, I would rappel down. This is how you would find me behaving in the mountains and it has worked well for me to join forces with the other parties as well. I am talking about water ice here, and other routes with objective hazards. The example of pulling over after 5 cars trailing does not quite apply in this concext. I understand the courtesy implications, but if every car on the road were spitting rock or ice projectiles at the windshields of following vehicles, and that were a generally accepted fact, that law would be repealed before I could finish typing this sentence. Not to mention the intense road rage that would ensue if anyone tried to pass another without giving them the safe space... That's all, Erden.

True iluvaliens, and don't take it personally. The question is: would you want to have people above you where the rock has the propensity to fall on its own even without people traveling over it? I would expect that your reaction would be the same even if you did not belong to any climbing organization. It is common sense, and you tell people to wait their turn. That is what we do in the civilized world at sea level, and we do not have to give up our manners just because we are in the mountains. Passing other parties is an art, and we see that everyday in the Valley in Yosemite. The situation is not any different if you want to get on the SF of Washington Column in Yosemite, for example. In that case, there has to be a gentlemen's agreement negotiated in that the party passing would not do the last pitch into the exit gully, and would just rap the route down short of the top. I guess there are ways to negotiate, and if passing means the other party will be exposed to the same dangers that I am currently exposed to by being under them, the question I would ask is not whether and how I can pass them to push the risk on the other party, but whether I should be under them at all. Think of the ridiculous accident on Mt. Hood with helicopters crashing, people pulling each other into the bergshrund... This is what I am trying to get to, being bull headed in the mountains means trouble. There is always another mountain, there is always another time. Best, Erden. [ 09-24-2002, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

Hey Fence Sitter: why don't you masturbate on your own time, dick head... We are talking about another fellow climber who died on Disappointment Cleaver this weekend. You have no room on this forum as far as I am concerned. Those who hide behind aliases and are allowed to get away with shit like this need to be moderated with a heavy hand. Erden.

iluvaliens says: "Had an experience with them on Rainier/Cleaver. Their fearless leader refused to let the three parties(including mine) by under the pretense that we were all going to kick rocks down on THEM!" In case you missed it, a climber died by falling rock on DC this weekend. They just came down. BTW, another picked on water ice climbs that work very differently for obvious reasons. If I were to arrive late, I would not get right under another party and start up to them anyway. We will have a good argument before anyone gets ahead of me on an ice climb at which I arrived first. Keep the space, and the line of ascent at least 50 feet to my either side. And it would still be totaly uncool if the other party got around me that way into a tight couloir above in which I would have to follow. Erden. [ 09-23-2002, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

Just to put a plug on the above spin about the Mountaineers: Pencil Pusher suggested that BoeAlps provides a similar class that is "Unlike the 2-5yr class length of the mounties, this one's about six months long. Also unlike the mounties ICC, most students come into the class with prior leading experience. Ice, rock, snow, aid, self-rescue, and a whole slew of other things taught by some cool and experienced people." The BoeAlps Intermediate Class schedule is on the web and runs from March 18-Sept 9, every weekend to finish. Mountaineers have in the past had students who finished the Mountaineers Intermediate Climbing Course in one or two years, depending on how committed they were and whether they could climb every weekend. We give them up to five years to complete the course, and offer them an extention if justified. There is a "Rescue Methods" session in the Mountaineers ICC. The "Small Party Self Rescue Seminar" covers the subject more thoroughly, and focuses on two person teams helping themselves. Let us not confuse acceptance requirements to join the Mountaineers ICC, and the Mountaineers Small Party Self Rescue Seminar. I joined the Mountaineers as an experienced climber. I did not go through the Basic, or the Intermediate courses, nor did I have to take 2-5 years of classes to become one of the participating instructors for the Small Party Self Rescue Course. We qualify the Mountaineers who have prior leading experience to participate in this new 2-3 month long Small Party Self Rescue Seminar. This would typically be a graduate of the Intermediate Class for example, or equivalent experience. So, ALL students come into the class with prior leading experience. Typically our leaders and instructors in our Small Party Self Rescue Seminar, Water Ice Course, Aid & Big Wall Seminar, Crag Course are all accomplished and knowledgeable climbers, not to mention their involvement in Seattle Mountain Rescue. We offer this seminar right now, and we just had a rock session tonight. I do not write about Boeing Alpine Society or Chelan County Mountain Rescue about whom I know nothing, nor am I a member. I only write about those organizations of whom I am a member for the sake of fairness and accuracy. Best, Erden Eruc Mountaineers Climbing Committee Member [ 09-20-2002, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

Mountaineers Small Party Self Rescue Seminar is modeled after the AMGA content, run by Seattle Mountain Rescue folks and staffed by able climbers. ... whatever that's worth ... Oh, and I am a member of the Mountaineers and my fingers are still in good shape. Erden.

Join the Mountaineers and take the Small Party Self Rescue Seminar. They will teach you how to extricate yourself from such incidents on rock, and on snow. Mountaineers Intermediate Course will not cover this material. There is a "Rescue Methods" session where basics will be discussed, but not to such extent. Erden. [ 09-12-2002, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

Funny I thought, and a shame: All of this chatter on your employers' time. Your tummy's are full, you have a paycheck and you are masturbating. You have no idea about how hard people try to find work, and they can't. You are full of yourselves and you should get over it. And if you know of a job where one can work hard, work with his honor intact and not be discarded by the system after all sorts of education and training, let me know. I have been on the street looking for over 16 months. They would not give me a f***ing box sorting job at UPS, cuz I was overqualified, forget high end stuff. F*** this economy... Erden.

We were camped out near Ingalls Lake, planning to get up Sunday morning to climb the complete North Ridge. Lenticulars were forming to the west and NW around 5 PM on Saturday and we were conscious of possible weather. We woke up several times with high winds that night and with drizzle. At 4:00 AM, we planned to pack up and get going. We decided against it when it was obvious that the cloud ceiling was lower than Goat Pass, and even Ingalls would not be visible from time to time. We decided to sleep in, and get out in the morning while the going was dry. We did not observe any early morning rescue activity on the south side of Stuart. That may have been later in the day if on the south side... Erden. [ 09-03-2002, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: erden ]