erden

The boat can be purchased, or custom designed and built. We will have to look into that. For example, on Ocean Rowing Society site, there is a way to buy or rent (http://www.oceanrowing.com/Sale/index.htm). Same site offers access to contact information on boat builders, etc. Erden.

I am considering biking to Aconcagua and back in case we cannot acquire the boat in time. If I want to be near Aconcagua to meet the team in Jan 2005, then that will impose departure deadlines on me, our options will depend on the funds at hand at given deadlines. By then, the approach by bicycle will have been tried and tested, and I will be able to rely on my gear. With two summits done, perhaps it will be easier to raise the funds for the boat and beyond. Erden.

Cpt - take a look at the links below. With enough vitamin-C, I should be able to find my way across with a complete set of teeth... Erden. ----------------- Ocean Rowing Society: http://www.oceanrowing.com, Goals.com: http://www.goals.com Mick Bird's Pacific Crossing: http://www.goals.com/transrow/index.htm Sound Rowers Open Water Rowing and Paddling Club: http://www.soundrowers.org/

I will change my avatar to your suggestion... Erden.

It is kind of you to cheer us on... Please keep an eye on Around-n-Over web site. We will be updating that into the future. I leave for Denali on Feb 1 to meet the team at Wonder Lake on May 1. I will provide dispatches from the road on our web site. Be on the look out for a story on the same trip in the April issue of the Outside Magazine. Outsideonline.com will also mirror these dispatches in their own format. The Learn & Share bulletin board on rei.com will provide related content and dispatches as well. Enjoy, Erden.

I am going to respond to the main question, but could not help quoting the below: The belay was closer to static than not. In my reply to Lambone dated 10/02/02 07:08 PM on page (4) of the Death at the Coulee thread, I explained that the rope strangulated my left arm, reducing any slip in the belay system to nill. This is also in the accident report dated: 10-01-2002 06:32 PM in the same thread. My response to Lambone dated 10/02/02 09:56 PM in the same thread explains the circumstances that led to the strangulation of my left arm by the rope. I shared my input on the circumstances of the belay during the accident with Dr. Helmut Mycroys, the UIAA Safety Rep for North America, and with Mike Gauthier, no need for introductions. Mike took over the investigation, and is consolidating all of the information on the accident. The additional tests on Air Guitar would have been done by Mike Gauthier and Lee Davis, an expert engineer, and a climber. I will confirm this. They would have wanted to understand the holding power of cams and carabiners in different configurations. Maybe it is worthwhile to mention that I am a mechanical engineer with a masters degree and an ABD. Having said the above, I would like to argue that plenty of qualified individuals have volunteered their time to come up with a complete understanding of the accident. What is meaningless is to let our words dribble out in ways that can be construed the wrong way. Let's try to be more appreciative, and to keep a good memory of the history of events before stirring the pot. Thanks, Erden.

Caveman, I thought better of you. Regardless, I still promise to beat your chest if I find you in trouble in the mountains, not breathing, not beating... on your own that is. Erden.

MY kick... I guess I made a private thing a public one again! Dang, I hate it when I do that! Erden.

This is a stereotype that needs to go away. When rescuers find themselves in trouble, it is NOT to be seen as incompetence. I am a member of SMR. It was not at all funny when others came to my help and to recover Göran. Not one person I know was laughing when we watched the clips of the army helicopter roll down Mt. Hood during their rescue. Have some gratitude for those who endanger their lives for our well-being. 'nuf said. Erden.

I do. Erden.

This post by deadguy is the kind of tasteless juvenile banter that turns off people from contributing to this site. I look at the profile of deadguy and there is no email, no name, no accountability for the posts. Hayshaker and his crew along with the army helicopter rescue crew have delivered countless emergency services and this is not the way that our community should pay back. This is just plain wrong and no amount of spray will keep me from voicing this opinion. By not requiring accountability, CascadeClimbers.com has given implicit permission for this kind of behavior and the resulting culture is one of many lurkers and few loudmouths that hijack any conversation. It is a choice that can always be reversed. Erden.

Thank you for the follow up question. Mike Gauthier has taken on the lead role in the investigation into Göran's accident. Mike will consolidate all available information into a one definitive independent report. This is at the request of the American Alpine Club and the Swedish Climbing Association, and Mike is collaborating with the UIAA safety commission in this effort. It is my hope that all such questions will be clarified and answered in due time. The rope is still with the Grant County Sheriff. Please have patience. Erden.

Mountain Tools Resling Service will do them for you. Erden.

I sent you PM. Let's take this offline. Erden.

I am leaving for Sweden today, and will return on Nov 12th. I may not be able to participate on this forum in the meantime. I will probably have limited access to email. I will try to stay connected, worse case, I will catch up when I return. Please climb safely. Erden.

Contact: Ryan Hayter, (360) 874-2170, haytercom@cs.com FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Event: Benefit Showing of “I Made It: Göran Kropp’s Incredible Solo Journey to the Top of the World” What: A celebration of the life of Göran Kropp, the Swedish adventurer who died in a climbing accident near Vantage, Washington, on September 30. “I Made It” is an award winning documentary about Kropp’s epic 1996 adventure when he rode his bike with all his gear from Sweden to Nepal, climbed Mt. Everest without supplemental oxygen or porters, and biked home. The film won the Best of Banff award from the Banff Mountain Film Festival in 1998. The special showing is a benefit for the Göran Kropp Bishwa Darshan Primary School in Taptin, Chyangba, Solukhumbu, Nepal. The school was founded by Kropp in 1996. Today there are two school buildings, a smaller hospital and a hydro plant. The project has been made possible through the donations from Kropp & Aventyr, schools in Sweden that have contributed materials, companies that have donated funds and the hard work of Wongchu Sherpa and Peak Promotion. Today there are around 150 pupils and five teachers. Donations will help equip the school with better material and increase the capacity of pupils and teachers. A $10 contribution will be accepted at the door prior to the benefit showing. For those who cannot attend, donations may be sent to: Goran Kropp Nepal Fund, c/o Helly Hansen, 3326 160th Ave SE, Suite 200, Bellevue, Washington 98008-5463. Make checks payable to Kropp & Aventyr. Following the film, friends and acquaintances of Kropp are welcome to share their personal stories about the world’s most entertaining adventurer. Beverages and hors D’oeuvres will be available for purchase. When: November 17, 2-5 p.m.; airing time 46 minutes. Where: The Mountaineers, Olympus Room The benefit showing was developed in cooperation between Helly Hansen, The Mountaineers, the American Alpine Club and friends of Göran Kropp. [ 10-28-2002, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

Given the reaction by Retrosaurus and Rodchester, I feel obligated to make a statement. Please do not confront Dr.Nil as such. Dr.Nil is meaning well, providing a different perspective, wanting no holes in our case when we make it. I have had offline PM exchanges with Dr.Nil, and we are not thinking any differently. This is a process of elimination, and it may all come down to just the lessons learned. I have taken the suggestion by Dr.Nil to contact Helmut Microys, as well as Jed Williamson. Dr. Microys is the National delegate to the UIAA Safety Commission for the USA and Canada. Jed Williamson represents the AAC Safety Commission and he believes that the information that we gather will be very useful, and supports our efforts to gather additional information. Dr. Microys has requested specific information, and I am providing that to him. Officer Brent Mullings, who was assigned to investigate the accident by the Grant County Sheriff, respected our desire to find out more, and applauded our willingness to help and to provide all information that we had and that we would gather. I had handed him a printed copy of my accident report when I had returned to the accident site that same week to search for the biner piece that we eventually found. Also Dr.Nil is thinking alike in that we have asked the Grant County Sheriff's Office to keep the evidence, including the good chunk of the carabiner, until further notice. Here is a memo that I wrote to Dr.Nil which I would like to share, and Dr.Nil is not debating my position on this: quote: I understand the legal concerns. In the time available, and with the funds at hand, this is the best that we can do. I do not have legal advice, cannot hire one. I will make my case in front of a judge pro se. I had turned over the gear involved in the accident to Gerhard Kropp (Göran's father) when they visited Seattle to go to the accident site, and explained that there is more work to be done to understand what happened. Gerhard handed the gear back to me, and said that "I trust you, you can investigate." This is more authority than any insurance company can debate, and it will stand in court. If a court challenges my investigation, that will also imply that they challenge my accident report; this will send a chilling message to all accident participants in the future and they will not say a word without legal advice, and we will only hear legalise from lawyers. I will not stand for that, and I will go down in flames if necessary. I am tempted to write this up publicly as well, but I will sleep over that. I hope you understand. I am not offended or anything, it is just that I disagree on the approach. At the beginning, I was told to not post any details, just tell them the time of the accident and shut up. I have told more than that, and I have done the right thing. I trust my instincts on this and I am taking into account your warning. We are making sure that the pieces at the sheriff's office remain untainted... Erden.

quote: Originally posted by Clyde Soles: It's highly unlikely that anyone could give a static belay in this scenario. There were two belay mechanisms in series. One loop around my arm, then the Reverso. The only dynamics in that system was the limited slip that burned my arm, and unnoticable lift that I may have received. The assumption should be that the belay was closer to static than not. Erden.

Please see a separate thread on this site, immortalizing Göran Kropp in our daily language... We need your help in propagating the language use that we have evolved on this thread. Please read that other thread, and think about whom you could alert about it? So far, I have written to: The helicopter crew that lifted us from the Coulee Mountaineers American Alpine Club Alpine Club of Canada UIAA Seattle Times Aftonbladet (Swedish newspaper) Expressa (Swedish newspaper) REI American Mountain Guides Association Climbing Magazine Rock & Ice Magazine Seattle Mountain Rescue Swedish Climbing Association Grant County Journal Frenchman Coulee Climbers' Association My former dojo and judo buddies A communications PhD friend of mine who does linguistics and ESL Cascade Crags Professional friends rockclimbing.com summitpost.com Adventure Cycling Association I hope to extend this personal list, and hope that you too can come up with additional ones. Erden. [ 10-26-2002, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

quote: Originally posted by Dr.Nil: It is not my intention to push people around Yeah, push me around, I can take it! Plans changed. I am planning to go to investigate Air Guitar on Saturday, and I will see if Paul and I can do the "ruler" project that you suggest, Dr.Nil. That is a good method to approach the investigation. It improves on what I had in mind. I like the idea of turning over the equipment that was involved in the accident to the Sheriff's Office to consolidate the gear. I will try to see if we can do that on Saturday as well. We will deal with the costs of the investigation as they come. I will keep track of them, so we know. I do not have the time, nor the energy to pursue "someone familiar with Washington state legislation, and having the formal qualifications." Already I am challenged to keep up. If anyone wants to participate, it will have to be after I return from Sweden on Nov 12, and they will have to let me know. Expanding the scope of the investigation beyond what I have planned is going to be challenging and it will take even longer. As for AAC needing financial guarantee to participate in the investigation, I am not fond of how that was stated. I would think that AAC would be more forthcoming than that. If AAC needs payment to participate, they were not on my radar screen to begin with, and I will go to the EN Certified Lab in England first, bypassing AAC. They will then receive just the accident report for the next issue of Accidents in NA. Let's keep in mind that I am involved because I have a reason to understand, to help resolve the mystery, and to bring a closure to this investigation. For me to turn it over to someone else, however qualified would mean that they would have to take ownership, to feel as professionally dedicated to it, and to do it on a voluntary basis. I do not have the time to set up a fund, nor do I have the means to finance it. Tell me so, if I am on a one track mind about this... Erden. [ 10-25-2002, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

Oh yeah, the media nor the police ever called the sniper, er sharpshooter, er serial killer a terrorist either on this side of the Atlantic... Erden.

quote: Originally posted by freeclimb9: Is the rope static, or dynamic? (I've become discombobulated by all the pages of this thread.) Once again everyone, the rope is at Grant County Sheriff's evidence room. It handled like dynamic rope, and it is a 60m rope. These we know for sure. It has been argued here that a dynamic rope will behave more like a static rope on the subsequent pieces, once the stretch is taken out of it by the first piece. That is all we know about the rope until it is verified otherwise by an independent lab. So let us not speculate about the rope involved in the accident any more. Erden.

quote: Originally posted by Bad[lasma: if the rope was weak--should it not have ripped apart? A static rope is not necessarily a weak rope. The argument is that a static rope will not stretch, and will not absorb any of the kinetic energy of the fall. The resulting downward forces at the top piece will be magnified as a result, making it more likely to fail. In addition, the no-strecth will also mean that the falling leader will be stopped more abruptly after their fall. This along with the high forces is likely to cause injury. And a person falling is the source of the kinetic energy that is being fed into the safety system. This kinetic energy has to be countered by the spring action of the stretched rope that takes up some of that kinetic energy as potential energy, rest is translated to heat and dissipated, and friction forces in the slipping/stretching system do 'work' against the kinetic energy of the fall. All of this is physics, and comes out of conservation of energy. So as trivial as it is, the falling person is the source of all the troubles. We could simply put it that the falling person caused the death at the Coulee - that does not answer any questions, nor does it draw any lessons to be learned. We know more than that. Erden.

quote: Originally posted by Norman Clyde: get yourself to an orthopedic surgeon. PM me if you want some names. I PM'ed you. Erden.

quote: Originally posted by Bad[lasma: I have a question for Erden. Whos gear was it--yours or his or somebody elses? It seems you should have known what kind of rope it was if it did belong to you--Ive been told that at least one of the peices that was recovered had your name on it--so the question is whos gear was it. Like someone else said--if your going to climb you should know the gear that you are climbing with-- Rope and quickdraws belonged to Göran. The rest of the hardware was mine. Erden.