JayB

Yup - but most people have a hard enough time expressing their feelings about relatively mundane stuff, and I think that they are truly at a loss when comfronted with the prospect of trying to say something that will do justice to an event like what seems to be a premature death. I think that most people find that anything that they can possibly think of saying would be inadequate next to the pain that the grieving are feeling, and revert to the MCTFAF so that at the very least their feelings will not go unexpressed and remain unknown to the objects of their sympathy. I think most people that read the MCTFAFs from strangers get this and appreciate the gesture, but would probably expect more from close friends and family members.

the certain 'behaviors' of a certain culture in mourning is a "social construct" but the universal need for mourning is not. it is innate. if it weren't we would not see this in completely isolated societies. That's why I referred to the rules themselves rather than the behaviors that they attempt to address. I think we are in agreement on this point.

This is a bit of a reach but - I think that many people, myself included - whip out the MCTFAF on the off chance that one of the FAF's will come accross the message while trying to better understand what happened, communicate something to about the accident, or whatever. The odds of that happening are admittedly low in this case, but for most people I know sympathetic words from strangers do, in fact make a difference and are worth adding for that reason even if the grieving may never see them. Judging by here comments it seems like the folks that bothered to post the C's on rc.com may have helped the wife a bit. Ditto for the C's to Kropp's FAF's, etc.

Since I already know Erik and think that he's a good guy my opinion of him doesn't have much to do with his take on this particular issue. As far as regarding/disregarding social morays is in general is concerned, all rules that govern human behavior are "social constructs," so that doesn't seem like a very useful criterion to use when deciding which ones to honor and which ones to disregard. Social constructs that have their origin in consideration for others - such as acknowledging that something must be painful for them and expressing sympathy for them even if you do not share their pain -should be granted a certain measure of respect for many reasons, foremost amongst them being the fact that they are one of the bases upon which a minimally functional society rests. Social constructs that have their origin elsewhere - such as eating crab with a special fork, not wearing white after Labor day et al can be disregarded by virtually everyone without society being any worse of for it, and can thus be tossed at will IMO.

Off topic - but this is a universal norm. Different cultures have different ways of dealing with the grief caused by the death of a loved one, but the grief itself is hardly a "Western" construct absent from other cultures. The notion that there are entire cultures out there who observe the death of those closest to them with nothing more than the serene indifference that witnessing a leaf fall to the ground would generate within them is truly the Western construct, if there ever was one.

Obviously there is no comparison between the grief one feels at the passing of a friend or family member and the death of a stranger thousands of miles away. However, when I learn about the death of a climber, no matter how far away - it always strikes a bit closer to home for a couple of reasons. The first is the sense of community created by a shared passion. The second is the fact that I can easily think back to a number of frightening situations that I have survived that might have turned out differently. I think of the grief that must be overwhelming their friends and family after such an accident and can very easily imagine my family and friends going through the same thing - and the prospect of that makes me shudder. I can also think of the aspirations, plans, and dreams of routes, mountains, vistas enjoyed in the company of trusted ropemates that died with them, and in some ways feel the loss as though it was my own. Though it will never even come close to grief generated by someone withing my own circle of friends and loved ones, I can't deny that when I hear about an accident like this I do, in some small way, pity the dead and grieve for those that they have left behind.

Supply and demand. My mom was a teacher, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for the job that they do, and would like to see them paid more - but the fact of the matter is that there is a vast supply of people out there who are both in posession of the necessary skill set and willing to work for the pay that the districts are offering, the result being that wages remain relatively low. One thing that I've never understood about teacher's pay scales is that there is no difference between what a Physics teacher makes and what a Home-Ec teacher makes. Virtually anyone can teach kids how to bake brownies and balance a checkbook, while it takes a considerable amount of dedication and sacrifice to complete a degree on physics, chemistry, or the other hard sciences. Yet there is no difference in their pay. That, plus the fact that graduates in physics and chemistry have significantly more, and higher paying career options available to them equals a permanent shortage scarcity of qualified instructors in the field. Yet I'd be willing to bet quite a bit of money that were a district to pay science teachers more than other teachers with comparable levels of experience the Union would go ballistic...

As I said above, the only reason that I posted this accident was in the hopes that others - not necessarily experienced climbers who know what they are doing - might be inspired to increase either their knowledge relating to or their vigilance about climbing safely. Anchors failing isn't Twilight Zone stuff - it does happen from time to time. Had this been an "Act of God" type accident where climbers were killed by massive rockfall on a trade-route or some other such accident where the only lesson one can take away is "Shit Happens" I wouldn't have bothered to post it. .

Bit more info "I'm the wife of David Kellogg, one of the climbers that was killed Sunday at Tahquitz....I want to thank everyone for their condolences and thoughts. Special thanks to those who helped with the rescue - I know that it will hard to cope with the aftermath of such a tragic accident. Just a little info on Dave........Dave was an experienced climber - he'd been rockclimbing for 13 years - started climbing when he was at Humboldt State.......proud papa of 2 year old Nicolas, who is learning to climb himself. Dave loved climbing - it was his passion in life besides his son. Dave and I traveled in SE Asia for 3 months in 2001 so he could climb in Thailand (loved Krabi!), Vietnam, Singapore and Malaysia. He will be sorely missed by family and friends - I miss him so much already....... The Press-Enterprise article switched the ages of Dave, 32 and Kelly, 41. I've spoken to Kenny Klein - the sheriff's dept actually transposed the ages. Thanks again everyone, Florabel" "First my condolences to the relatives friends and witnesses. For the rest of us, all that can be done at this point is try to learn from what happened. Not always simple as often the true facts are impossible to determine. The Step never was really a "trade route" and was mis-graded for many years and always had a little mystery about it. The mentioned rockfall was between The Step and Fools Rush and I don't think it affected the route, although things can change instantly. I haven't done it for a few years, but I think it was after the last major rockfall. From Bad Traverse Ledge you do a short pitch to an uncomfortable but solid belay at a tree. You need to do this to allow enough rope for the next long pitch. The next pitch goes up to a strenuous but very well protected move over a small roof, (5.8 on some of the older route descriptions but closer to 10b.c) There's another 10a crux after that and it is a little devious, not at all obvious how it goes. There aren't any good places to belay between the two. There is a good belay after the second crux. It's a rope stretcher with a 50m rope from the tree and I don't think you could get there with a 60m from Bad Traverse Ledge. The next pitch goes up a right facing dihedral, (seem to remember it being rather wide) to "The Step" near its top. From there you can go right and finish with Super Pooper or left to Fools Rush. It would be easy to get lost here and end up on Price of Fear, (a Sorensen 10c) or run out face near the top. This area has some loose blocks and flakes also. The following comments need to be taken only as general observations that have been getting people in trouble in recent years and may have no relevance to this event, but should be kept in mind. Tahquitz is most properly characterized as an alpine area. It's not a sport crag or even a completely clean trad area like parts of the Valley, Suicide, Needles etc. Most climbs involve at least some spots where you must deal with less than ideal rock. You need to climb here with an alpine mind set, (minus the speed requirements). Test every thing. Even if you've done the route multiple times. Place pro to account for possibly faulty rock, not just your ability to climb it. Even the easier trade routes involve significant route finding problems. Even in the Valley it's often possible to walk out in the meadows and scope out a route. That doesn't happen here often. If you are unsure, back off, ask for help, or go the most obvious easiest way. If you miss a pitch, it will be there later. Better than getting to a dead end with no good anchors. Making up your own variations at the top can lead to real trouble. If there's lots of lichen, there's a reason, and it's not that no one has thought of going that way before. 60M ropes have lead to many unnecessary epics here. Most of the routes here were established with 120 ft ropes and a bowline on a coil. That means that the traditional pitch lengths are around 100 ft. (120-140 ft or so with later routes done with 150s). Run out your 60M to the end and you could find yourself in a bit of a predicament with no decent anchors. When you get to a comfortable belay with a good anchor, use it. Even if it was only a 100 ft pitch. Again this is not meant to even imply that any of these things are what happened in this incident. I climb there almost every weekend and kind of see it as my backyard playground. I just don't want to see anyone get hurt there. _________________ The Gray Tradster"

One could also argue that dependence upon either direct government funding or tariff walls erected by the government could prove to be far more homogenizing and stiffling than a market driven media sector. Whether it be the government or a corporation, the content that receives funding will be profoundly influenced by the perogatives of those institutions doing the funding. At least in a market economy you have multiple institutions with multiple perogatives providing the resources necessary to produce content. In a system in which the government is the primary clearinghouse through which movies, films, and plays must pass the potential for self-interested censorship is considerably higher. Cultural protectionism and excessive government influence in the media sector has actually contributed to the moribund and generally unmarketable condition of cultural output in many countries, in France in particular. Anyone familiar with history will recognize the fact that isolation from the influences of other cultures, rather than exposure to them, is what leads to cultural sterility and stagnation. This, like every other tarriff/subsidy scheme in history will backfire and actually exacerbate the very problem it seeks to remedy.

Photo gallery seems to be working now. Nice pics Layton! I think that the Teutonic Nihilists are onto you and are hacking your system from their secret control center in the short bus. Be afraid. Be very afraid. They believe in nothing.

How's your leg doing?

From RC.com "Two San Diego climbers died from what appeared to be a Factor 2 fall just right of the White Maiden Buttress on Tahquitz Rock today. The belayer had the anchor pieces attached to him and there were some pieces still on the rope. The climbers were still tied together. The two fell down several pitches (estimated about 3-4) over Fool's Rush. Our best guess is that they were climbing The Step, judging from where they fell from, where their packs were, and what we learned about the ability of one of the climbers. They sustained massive injuries and shattered their helmets. THANK YOU VERY MUCH to everyone who helped in this horrible situation. The climbers at the rock reacted quickly but, unfortunately nothing could be done. Everyone showed amazing strength and compassion in the situation. Thank you also to the RMRU, the Riverside Sheriff, and the CDF, all of whom responded to the accident. We don't know anything about these climbers except their names and ages, but I am sure they were well known and respected. Our condolences to the families of both men. If you have any questions about the accident, Art and I witnessed the men falling and were present through the rescue efforts in the hours before the RMRU responded. Again, condolences to the families and feel free to PM or e-mail us with questions. Meg (roseraie) and Art (artm)" "I was on The Trough yesterday when the climers fell. I am trying to get as much info as possible. I was leading my boyfriend up his first multipitch climb. He heard someone swearing a lot and then heard the fall. He heard the pieces fall out and a large moaning sound when the guy landed. I found someone on the radio to call 911 after I heard someone yelling for 911 and for a helicopter. I'm sure I was not the only one to call. We spoke with someone this morning who said that they fell from the White Maiden's Walkway (5.4). That sounded odd and I assumed that they were novice climbers. Can you tell me their names and ages? I thought maybe it was 2 guys that we met on the way in who seemed to have very little gear with them and who's car was still in the parking lot at about 7pm. Thanks, Leslie" I have only heard of three instances of total anchor failure in the past 8 years or so. One involved three climbers in the Sandias who were found at the base of the route with around three pieces of distressed gear on the rope - if I remember correctly it appears that they were simulclimbing when the leader fell and took his ropemates with him. There was also a couple from CO who died as a result of total anchor failure in Yosemite a couple of years ago. I remember one more that occured when the leader fell on a sunrotted multipitch ice-climb in CO, and the first screw and the two-screw anchor ripped-out during the fall. As long as there are climbers there will be deadly accidents, but fatalities resulting from anchor failure seem especially preventable. Hopefully news of this tragedy will inspire others to be vigilant about both learning and practicing solid anchor construction, getting in a bomber piece ASAP after leaving the belay, and putting in pro a bit more frequently at the start of a climb to account for the higher fall factors generated as a result of having so little rope out. Easy principles to understand that are just as easy to get complacent about. If you are either a friend of or are related to the deceased climbers you have my sincere condolences.

My ass you didnt puke inside, it looked like a can of chef boyardee exploded on the step by the side doors. haha. As for the nialist, TUNN DOON DA MUZAK OR VE VILL CUT OFF YO JHONSON, VILE VERING VOMANS PANTIES AND JUMING THROO FIRE DA!

bobbyp and i were there for like two minutes and had to leave before we fell asleep. C'mon! We were at least as rowdy as the German Nihilists camped nearby - at least while they were sipping lingenberry wine and contemplating Nietzsche - and WAAAAAAAAAAAY more rowdy than the Girl Scout troop in the adjacent campsite. They petered out after smores at around 9:00, while we drained at least 1/10th of the keg and kept things going until 9:45 or so...

The steel-hula is still there for all who wish to hop through it and undergo the transformation of which erik speaks...

Blah! Sweet Pic

Great Weekend. Major props to Wirlwind for taking the crew of 8 to Skull Hollow in Le Cruising Vessel, to jlag for the keg full of micros, to the sunspot cafe for the dope-ass 5$ breakfasts of doom with unlimited coffee, and to all of the folks I climbed with this weekend.

Definitely digging the absence of poinltess anti-bolting tirades on this thread.

Who is bringing the Counting Crows Disc of Doom so we can fully recreate the original ropeup conditions around the campfire....

Cool. When are you planning to activate the site?

Word. "Steve House and some guy from Portland were supposed to be there, but as it turned out I was the only American competing..."

I think its important to separate the rhetoric and symbolism from the reality. If the figures show that lowering the top marginal rate and the capital gains rate actually increase the percentage of the overall tax burden borne by the wealthiest Americans (see above) then one would think that those in favor of progressive taxation would support such a move.

www.climbxmedia.com. Defunct. Video was cool - as was the sound track.

Caught a peek at the Guide at FF tonight. Nice work - I would be surprised if it doesn't spur quite a bit of activity in areas that have been relative backwaters until this point - if the conditions cooperate. Bring on Le Cold....