JayB

My point is and has been that a disinclination to participate in a particular conversation about a particular topic at a particular time - with anything approaching complete candor isn't necessarily the result of a failure of conviction, education, or upbringing. There are quite a few other reasons why someone might decline to engage in a conversation. There are often times when I conclude that I just don't care that the person addressing me thinks, and/or find that they are too ill informed about the subject at hand or too unintelligent to merit any serious conversation on my part.

If you are having a discussion, then you are abiding by a set of rules and courtesies that isn't entirely consistent with an interaction in which you say what you want "regardless of what the opposing views" are. Discovering that someone takes solace in the notion that their dead child is waiting for him or her in heaven, and then politely but insistently recounting the arguments that call such an outcome into question would be consistent with an obstinate refusal to anyone else's viewpoints into account - but pardon me if I doubt that you were part of a family that valued candor above decency or sensitivity to such a degree, or that any hypothetical family that did so would be a model worthy of praise or emulation. Yes - there are many strategies by which you can have a discussion with people that you disagree with, but in the real world, candor and civility become mutually exclusive at some point - normally when the truth or falsity of someone's most closely held convictions comes into play and the emotional or political stakes are high enough. If someone is a guest at my house and I discover that they are a creationist, the nature of our verbal interactions would be much different than if I found myself on the opposite podium at a school-board meeting while they argued that creationism should be presented in the same manner as evolution in biology class.

Well said! I grew up in a family where discussion over a variety of topics was encouraged - and nourished - regardless of what the opposing views were. Sunday dinner growing up meant dinner, dessert and then evolution, politics and religion. Some of the best trips I've been on include sitting in a tent discussing events; nothing makes you forget about a raging storm like arguing about God and Bush! What exactly do you mean when you say "regardless of what the opposing views were?" The opposing views of whom? Opposing viewpoints held by persons who were not present at the table? Back-and-forth between parents and kids as the kids start to think for themselves is part of the process by which any sensible parent prepares their children to evaluate ideas in a manner that will enable them to function in the world. Children in a family disagreeing with one another, or their parents, or their parents with them is par for the course in just about every family - although I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule. Spouses disagreeing with one another about some particular topic is also commonplace, but in a healthy relationship the boundaries for these discussions have largely been established, and the parameters in which they occur are limited by affection and/or prudence - so I have a hard time believing that the debates between Mom and Dad were quite as freewheeling as you suggest. I have a hard time believing that you were raised in a household in which part of your family's hospitality included subjecting the beliefs of adult guests that were invited to join you at the dinner table to a merciless cross examination, regardless of the topic or the kind of emotional response this would induce in them. Sounds like a typical family, rather than any kind of unique incubator of the Socratic method.

Vermont. Took the tour of the wholly-owned subsidiary of Unilever, Inc in Waterbury on the way home. The irony was at least as delicious as the product they manufacture there.

I'd say the shrill-factor depends on the person more than anything else, but most people who hold minority viewpoints have to temper the shrillness quite a bit if they want to avoid compromising their casual social relationships, or workplace relationships by presenting contrary viewpoints every time the opportunity to do so arises. Anyone who doesn't want to retreat into a compound or needlessly alienate people that they might otherwise get along with is going to have to learn how to deal in one way or another, and I think more what you are likely to see is a certain sense of relief in the company of the odd kindred spirit, more than any open hostility in the presence of those who share the sentiments of the majority.

Well for me it's not my own touchiness about my own political views that's at work - it's other people's reactions to them. Having lived and socialized in settings where my opinions on a number of topics are in the minority, and where people hold contrary opinions with a certain zeal, and respond to dissent from them with a certain degree of indignation (which seems to be more common amongst folks who live in an environment where the broad majority shares their views) - discretion is the better part of valor, IMO. I was less inclined to hoist the agnostic flag with folks that I met in Colorado Springs when I was living there, than I would be in the neighborhoods that I spend most of my time in here in Boston, ditto for various economic topics in Boston than in Colorado Springs. If you happen to be a fairly ardent Christian in Colorado Springs, or someone who is convinced that trade in the absence of subsidies and tariffs is mutually detrimental to any parties which choose to engage in it in Boston - then you're much less likely to have to introduce as much discretion into your discussion of these topics. If I want contentious discussions, want to invoke negative responses from those in whatever group I happen to be surrounded by - I have no doubt that I'll have plenty of opportunities to do so at times or places of my choosing, if the setting was appropriate or the stakes were high enough. Someone who espouses Creationism at a dinner party will get a much different response from me than someone arguing for the inclusion of creationism into the local curriculum at a school board meeting.

Do you really think that it's an incapacity to discuss these things, rather than a disinclination to do so in a particular setting? For my part, I'm certainly not worried that I lack the rhetorical tools, the conviction, or the knowledge necessary to debate the guy next to me into the ground if I chose to - that's just not the kind of interaction that I'm looking for when I'm pursuing a hobby in the outdoors - or at the Thanksgiving table, etc. I think another variable that I factor into which topics I'll engage in serious discussion about involves the frequency with which that I am likely to see someone and the nature of our relationship in the future. If I know I'm going to see someone quite a bit, and will establish a relationship that's significant enough to overcome whatever feelings might arise during some kind of ideological or political disagreement, then I'd be more likely to participate that kind of a conversation. If it's someone that I'm only likely to see a couple of times a year at most, or if I have no idea when I'll see them again - then it would be silly to introduce that kind of a challenge into the relationship that has such a slim basis to begin with, and which won't be remedied or rendered insignificant by more regular contact that doesn't involve disagreeing about religion or politics.

I'd say the observation that most climbers align more closely with the Left than the right is reasonably accurate whatever the local politics happen to be, and the reasons for that might make for an interesting thread. As interested as I am in political topics, and as willing as I am to share my views in certain settings, I have little or no interest in engaging in political conversations when I'm out climbing, boating, skiing - any more than I have an interest in debating my in-law's religious viewpoints at the Thanksgiving table. There's a time and a place, and for me - when I'm out to enjoy myself in the outdoors with other people who share my enthusiasm for climbing, hiking, fishing, boating, etc - just isn't it. If it was, I think I'd have missed out on some great trips and times with people who I really like, but with whom I'll never agree with when it comes to religion and or politics. This has involved everyone from un-reformed Marxists to Creationists and everyone in between. It has been kind of interesting for me to be a sort of ideological fly-on the wall on various outings, and listen to the political banter that's passing back and forth amongst folks who are operating under the assumption that everyone in the group is part of the same political Tribe.

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The Cougar-Harpies at Bellevue Square are beckoning him toward the rocks of convention and idleness... Am also interested in one each of the #1 and #2 pitons.

Someone buy the guy a pint for me.

I'm interested in the KB's. Price? Might be able to arrange for pick-up in Seattle if shipping is a problem.

Have there been belay loop failures other than the late Todd Skinner's?

Aha. I forgot about Morrison and the Tub...

Thermidor...

Scrofula, copper bathtubs, and chicks with daggers come to mind much more readily than Jim Morrison so you'll have to help me out a bit on that one. I always thought that he made an interesting contrast to Franklin.

I count on cc.com to bridge the cognitive gap between any conceivable subject and bushcheneyhalliburtonrovecarlyleausdfaisygosaugakslj in record time and am seldom dissapointed.

"the boisterous sea of liberty is never without a wave" - thomas jefferson sometimes them waves can build up into a damn tsunami, no? Perhaps that was "le deluge" Louis the 14th was referring to. I expect Chavez to promote liberty at least as well as Robespierre and Marat did.

Yeah - the trailhead vehicle is more of a means to protect your finances/emotions when the inevitable vandalism/theft/torching happens. If the entire rig is worth less than $500 on the market, you should be able to look upon any amount of damage with a kind of platonic detachment than would be possible with a newer, more expensive rig.

Explain how this is possible.... "Carlyle Group Shores Up Listed Fund Holding Mortgage Loans LONDON (AP) -- Washington-based private-equity firm Carlyle Group has been forced to lend money to Carlyle Capital Corp. Ltd., a highly leveraged fund listed in Amsterdam that invests in residential mortgage-backed securities, to meet margin calls. In a statement Tuesday, Carlyle Capital said Carlyle Group has extended a $100 million one-year loan to help it fund itself, and that it has already tapped the loan for $10 million." These people manipulate the levers of the global power structure by merely blinking at them, we are all mere pawns in their mighty chessboard etc - it hardly needs to be said - cetera. Something as humble as levered mortgage-based securities could puncture the facade of omnipotence and invincibility, a bunch of working stiff's that got carried away after watching one too Carlton Sheets infomercials have inflicted a flesh wound on the *Carlyle Group* with their little defaulting I/O, neg-am, payment option 2/28s that they took out to purchase income properties yielding rents that cover less than half of the post-reset payments? I...think...not Perhaps this but a small part of their vaunted "false-flag" strategy - feigning a small measure of weakness before once again employing "sovereign" governments to enrich them by doing their bidding. Hmmm...

Hopefully it never got this bad...

The "trailhead vehicle" with torn upholstery, no stereo, rusted out body panels and.... a fully restored and very reliable engine/drivetrain/suspension/etc is definitely part of the long-term plan. After another winter driving between Boston and parts north on some of the most intensely salted roadways in the US, the "rust" part of the plan should be pretty well in place...

The only problem for me is that even after denuding the truck of anything that would make it easy for them to gain access to my house or credit - there's still a bunch of stuff that I keep in my truck that I'd rather not have anyone steal. I've got a basic set of tools, a big flashlight, a headlamp, a shovel, come-along, tow-strap, one of those portable jump-start deals, light-sleeping bag, therma-rests, etc - basically the stuff I need to fix the more common stuff that can hose you if you are 20 miles from the last fork on the logging road, or if I need to crash overnight someplace - and while none of it is particularly valuable - I have a hard time with the "unlocked door" idea for some reason, even though I know that the kind of person who is jacking cars at trailheads wouldn't be the least bit reluctant to smash every single window if it stood between them and something they wanted, and/or provided some momentary amusement. What's everyone else do? Locked or unlocked? Anyone ever have a vehicle stolen from a trailhead, or know someone who this has happened to?

Bullshit. Mahar Arar was charged with and/or convicted of absolutely nothing prior to being shipped off to Syria to be imprisoned and tortured. Similar treatment has been meted out by the US to who knows how many other totally innocent individuals in the years since 9/11 "changed everything". Same goes for all those nameless souls you've got locked up in Guantanamo Bay - what charges, trials, convictions have any of them been through? I agree Karl Rove should be allowed the sort of habeus corpus rights you espouse, but I also believe those same rights should be extended to everyone who is subject to US "justice". Here's a much more timely question - will fellow Canadian Georges St. Pierre be subject to another round of US justice at the hands of Josh Koschek, or will the multi-lateral offense that GSP brings to the match carry the day as it has in the past?

Sorry this happened, but thanks for sharing your experience so that other folks can learn from it. At the moment if anyone were to break into my car, they'd get their hands on at least as much personal information as these guys stole. Definitely need to do a bit of cleaning, and re-think what I leave in the car and where I leave it.