Terminal_Gravity

JayBee...dude; I thought you did all that testing. I was really, very impressed and envious of your motivation. I guess I have to read more carefully. Oh well, great info, thanks for sharing...you rock any way.

I acctually camped & parked at the wide section of the dirt road where the PCT crosses NW of Big Lake. I had never been there before. The road to the South shore of big lake still had a bit to much snow on it to drive. The closest access is probably through the Mormon camp on the East side of the lake. It will probably be melted off soon though. In any case the hike is so short that it doesn't really matter. All that being said the snow was still deep in the trees but firm, even in the afternoon. It was still more or less skiable but walking would be easier...IMO. The ski down the NW bowl was fun and fast in thick fog, so I recommend bringing skis for the decent. The summit was sunny at 8:00am with clouds filling the passes between Wash. & Jeff. It was quite a sight seeing the wind push the mists into a big vortex against the west wall and push it spinning over the North Ridge.

Thank you very much JayB. I looked at the capsize issue a long time ago. I strongly feel that a figure eight loaded cross ways is an inappropriate use of the knot. This is particularly true of larger diameter ropes; as your tests seeem to indicate. Small diameter ropes will often hold better on this knot. I also think that kern-mantel ropes are the most suseptible to capsize> The only advantage I see in this knot is that it is fast to tie. Useing ehmmics technique may make the knot capsize proof but if tied wrong ( the loose tail is in the wrong place or there is no loop) i think that it fails upon the first capsize. It seems that if you re-weave a figure eight so that each tail comes out of the opposite end; the knot is fail proof. Is this not the proper way to tie (and load) a figure-8 for connecting 2 ropes?

Thanks for the TR. It brought back some great memories. To bad you didn't have rock gear. TM rock is some of the fairest of all.

Hey Jake, The snow was to the parking lot of Mt. Washington yesterday. It was firm enough to walk on though. The summit block and most of the N. ridge were dry. I assume 3FJ is about the same. I was back at the car at 11:15 AM and immediatly started pounding Gin & tonics. A doctor told me one time that Quinine (in tonic water) helps you keep from getting malaria...and the little flying blood suckers were out in force. [ 06-17-2002, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Terminal Gravity ]

Thank you, Pope. I feel all warm & fuzzy inside. The trig review I had to put myself through was valuable. I have to design a tower to support a cantalivered malt bin this month... so that I can make more beer. I'm sorry I called you a pompous dork...I take it back.

Yes, indeed - cos(arccos(y))=y but my formula is cos(90-arccos(y)). Simplified as you wish, I believe the force on the AT is Sqrt(2) times the V when x = 0 and reaches a maximum of 1.5 times the load on the V (using your sling) when x = 12 inches. I also believe that I do understand the big picture and my formula for the AT is correct (if you substitute 48 for 24), but not reduced. Check it out. But you win, my brain is getting all mushy and shit. BTW, she's not that fat. If you carefully clove hitch each cold shut so that the horizontal run of an AT is not tight, the force vector is not 1/2 of the angle of the lower legs of the triangle; it is the angle just like in a V system. In cases where the extra loops don't use a significant amount of the sling (most) you get a better angle and less resultant load than the V. That being said, the difference may not be worth the extra complication and if a CH slips you could be back to the AT.

Sorry about the poor formating on the chart. I'd rather wiz on the computer than become a wiz on it. I also made some full colour graphs but they would not transfer at all. I'm dissapointed in you, Pope. That eloquent troll I posted above and no comeback?

Pope you are such a pompous Dork. You have also really presented an unworkable or incomplete problem. Firstly, if all you really have is one "sewn" sling your options are very limited. Girth hitch one bolt and then what?? I assume that you have a way to connect the sling to the bolts...a couple of carabiners, maybe? So "x" really becomes the distance between connection points. Also, I assume that you would always tie at least a slider not in the V method which will cost about an inch of sling. That very point invalidates your later statement that the AT is never stronger than a V. (yes, for any real case senario but you are talking in absolutes) Furthermore, niether system is the best for most reasonable cases. An AT clove hitched at both connections puts the least load on both bolts...you know it, and I know it. I will compare the three systems not just your simple and innapropriate two. For the sake of analysis I will make a couple of assumptions. First, You have a 'biner or split ring to hang at the bottom of the sling (powerpoint). Second, a slider knot at the bottom of the V requires one inch of sling. Third, 2 clove hitches at the connection points require 4 inches of sling. Fourth, the spacing "x" is from the connection point not the bolts themselves and those connection points don't affect the calculations by moving...not true in the real world. And fifth, the load is perpendicular to a line drawn between the connection points...also not always true. Weight of Rappeler = Lr Load on each bolt = Lb For the American Triangle the formula is: Lb=1/Cosine(90-(Arccosine((x/2)/((24-x)/2))/2))*Lr/2 For the V sling the formula is: Lb=1/Cosine(90-(Arccosine((x/2)/((24-1)/4)))*Lr/2 And, not surprisingly, the formula for a clove hitched AT is: Lb=1/cosine(90-Arccosine((x/2)/((24-4-x)/2)))*Lr/2 Note: I kept extra parenthasis and did not reduce anything so that even you could follow. If you solve for x, you quickly see that the AT and V are equivalent at slightly over 11 inches and the AT is superior above that ... refuteing your low brain statement. Also, the clove hitched AT is stronger ( by a bit ) then the "V" up to an x of 8.5 inches So, in summary the strongest is the CH-AT to 8.5 then the V to 11.2 and then the AT. Below is a chart Load to bolts (#'s) with 1000# system load Spacing------AT-------V------CH/AT ---1--------723-----502-----501 --1.5-------732-----504-----502 ---2--------742-----508-----503 --2.5-------752-----512-----505 ---3--------764-----518-----508 --3.5-------776-----525-----512 ---4--------791-----533-----516 --4.5-------806-----543-----523 ---5--------824-----555-----530 --5.5-------844-----569-----540 ---6--------866-----586-----553 --6.5-------892-----606-----570 ---7--------922-----630-----593 --7.5-------957-----660-----625 ---8-------1000-----696-----671 --8.5------1052-----742-----742 ---9-------1118-----803-----870 --9.5------1204-----887----1174 --10-------1323----1013-----N/A -10.5------1500----1226 --11-------1803----1714 -11.5------2500-----N/A Clearly, the AT is not the best choice. If the spacing is ever more than 9.5 inches you had better figure out something else like hacking off a piece of your rope. Pope on a rope...sounds like a bath soap. [ 06-09-2002, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Terminal Gravity ]

Old Hydra plastic kayak in good shape with practically new high end fiberglass paddle w/60 degree offset - $120 Klikatat fiberglass canoe - this once was a beautiful canoe but it now needs some work -$50 Homeade steel raft frame for large raft and oars - needs one oarlock -$25 I can deliver to Portland.

I've also got a mens large dry suit...complete with black berry bush punctures. Make offer

Maybe you should have posted this in the Yard Sale...and while your there check out my offer of a tru starter kit for only $120. I'll throw in a spray skirt and helmet too.

$30 OBO they are very close to new ( used on two short runs). I assume they fit on some other bindings.

quote: Originally posted by Dennis Harmon: This recent accident on Mt Hood again shows how stupid it is to tie into a rope unless you are actively belaying. If I die in the hills I hope that I do it alone. To take others with me, it seems to me, would be the supeme act of selfishness, not to mention, rude. Dennis I'll give Dennis the benifit of the doubt and assume that he was refering to ropes on a slope, not on a relatively flat glacier. Maybe his timing was insensitive, but I have to agree. You might think it is fun to bombast Dennis. But I bet most of you agree...it is stupid to not belay ( and anchor ) a rope when climbing. It is clear that the tragedy on Hood would have been mitigated if they had not been using ropes. A rope is a dangerous (and stupid) substitute for skilled self arrest. You know it and I know it...so blow your selves. [ 06-07-2002, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Terminal Gravity ]

We have discussed Europe's method of paying rescue. Does any body know what Japan does? It is my understanding that more people die on Fuji than any other mountain...because more people (and more ill prepared gumbies) climb it than any other mountain. I also heard that Hood has the second largest fatality count in the woirld. Is this true? On another note; I got to ride up in one of those military helo's when a buddy broke his leg on the upper Coe glacier (Hood). I hiked out to get help. No cell phone. It was very cool and very impressive ( the pilot did a one skid landing on a steep ridge) and I'm very glad it was free...that is the way it should be. Can you imagine if we charged for fire rescues out of burning buildings. There is really not much difference if the fire was caused by the rescued person falling asleep with a cig in their hand than there is if somebody in the mountains falls asleep when they should be self arresting. [ 06-06-2002, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Terminal Gravity ]

quote: Originally posted by AlpineK: Otherwise you will end up being a burned out boulderer with one little stupid rock as the focus of your life. Been there, done that.

Trask - I would be happy to share a corn dog and a micky of Hood River gin with you.

Sold! for $5 in 3 minutes to Primate.

64 MB chip for lower slot on older iMac - $5 or free to good home.

I think this thread would easily place in the top three all time threads in a contest for the most average content per post. Not only that, sex and bowel movements are also discussed. Clearly, important parts of life. What more valuable way could we spend avoiding work then to read about climbers thoughts on life, death and risk; not to mention Pope's constipation.

quote: Originally posted by Dru: "Oh i didnt summit but that is not the point Im just out there climbing for fun" and suddenly a summer goes by and you realize you did not succeed on anything.... Yeah, like Dru says. Sometimes, 50 miles in a day or slapping that blue hold works for a sense of accomplisment. But too get the real goods the level of commitment has to be there. Not to say that you should not have fun nor push beyond a comfortable level of risk. If we never push the boundy of what we can accomplish, we never end up accomplising anything. Climb; Climb fun, Climb safe but most importantly climb hard...at least some of the time or you're just a follower. IMO

quote: Originally posted by Dennis Harmon: Terminal Gravity, Thanks for your response and I'm hearing you, but until you bury a climbing partner and deal with the grief of the family and the void your terminal absence creates, you'll never understand. Until you do that the risks we run in the hills are just a fucking game, something to be laughed at over beers in the pub afterwards. But once you see the flip-side of the coin the "game" becomes all too real and maybe then you'll understand just how much sorrow you can inflict on the very people who love you the most. Dennis I can forgive your ignorance this once, DH. But your being self righteous making assumptions about what I've experienced.

I agree with iain. Especilly when you consider muliple cravasses and that they are not always perpendicular. That being said the ability to get in self arrest without hesitation is paramount. A Kiwi coil that is too short will fuck you bad. Adiquate loose rope and quick reactions are the best insurance on a 2 person team...other than not falling in in the first place, which is my personal preference.

Dennis; without attacking you personnally, I think that your veiws and attitude are pure myopic pessimistic bullshit. First, it is obvious that most people care about things other than themselves...especially people that enjoy outdoor pursuits. Secondly ( and a much bigger subject), risks exist in the mountains, and every part of life for that matter. To get to zero risks in the mountains, stay home, watch TV and eat potatoe chips. Do you really think that ( just to name two) Boukerev and Lowe died because they were being stupid. NO, they had more skill and smarts than we can hope to ever have. They have turned back on more climbs than most of have even attempted. The subjective exposure just called their number. An extremely skilled climber, climbing dog routes, with excellent gear and very conservative weather/condition choices may make the risk approach zero. But that sort of climbing is the equivalent of spending the day on a stairmaster watching nature videos. I for one have some skill, good gear and am not afraid to turn back if things aren't right. That being said, my passion is to climb hard committed routes in the mountains. It is only when I push the envelope a bit that I feel truly alive. It is then that my life is the finest, my focus is the most pure and my life has the most value. To me that is what is valuable about climbing. I engage in careful risk management but know that risks exist. Jeez, a serac that has been stable for a decade could pick the moment I am under it to collapse. Oh well. The only thing that I can do is minimize my time under one or stay home and eat potatoe chips ( and drink, a lot). I choose not to eat a lot of potatoe chips. All of the above not withstanding, I think that in some of the better or more prolific climbers there is a bit of a psycosis involved. The drive to push ever harder is there for some. It is only when that drive is balanced by reasonably safe practices that great routes are accomplished in the mountains by people that survive to talk about it. I deal with this balance regularly. After my recent solo of an easy and straight forward route on Rainier that pushed my personal envelope because of the storm, I felt sated and accomplished...for about a week. Two days ago I found myself pouring over Mike G's guide and thinking about soloing the Mowich face or even dreaming about soloing the Willis Wall. I'll end up doing it sooner or later. I'll try to move fast and be conservative but it WILL envolve risks. We'll see if I survive, so that I can climb something harder.

I think there is a helicopter on Hood you could get for cheap.