Jim

Glad to see that you will at least consider the idea by checking it out. You may also look at this which is even more recent. Out of the Ashes, The Resurrection of Saddam Hussein, 2000 If you think that CIA intervention is a good thing then that is an opinion. But the facts of this are pretty well documented.

Shoot - had page top and blew it.

Well I would agree that Kosovo webpage is bogus. However, Blum's book on the CIA is refernced very well. And if you want to toss out that book - then try the others. But because you don't like the way something sounds is no argument. Again - try Chompsky's book - it's comprehensive and well referenced. Search the Washington Post site - they had an article about it, same with the NYTimes. So far I've heard nothing to dispute this, even from PP. If you get all your news from the Tube you're going to miss a lot.

PP - I'll try again - "historical context" - how's that. Now, go back and look at the other more recent documents I suggested. I'll even bail from those two as they are background - and if you think Blum is a kook - toss that one. Now, go to the book store or libray and pick up a copy of one of the others. Sit down, read. Then maybe we'll have an informed (both sides) discussion.

Again, I would suggest you read some of the references I supplied. There are a couple older ones that discuss US early intervention (historcical context), take a look a Chompsky for the Cliff Notes version. You say you don't know. I do, I've read the books, and some of the source material. I can't spoon feed you. Read some, and then let me know what you think. Otherwise you're uninformed.

Peter - I think your earlier reply was that I lost all credibility - I would encourage you do some reading - but I also noticed that you're not disputing the Saddam/CIA connection(?)

That's not a logical arument, that's putting on blinders. And comparing the assertion that the CIA helped Saddam gain power with some who declare the Holocaust didn't happen is taking the low road. Here's some primary documents and another book. In addition if you go to the library and take a look at Chompsky's "Year 501" it is referenced in detail with primary sources. Also, just do a Google for news articles. It's not hard to find some facts. If you have some good sources that say this is all horseshit then we can talk about that. Otherwise it just looks like you don't want to belive what you hear. Details available at Paperless Archives's website: http://www.paperlessarchives.com/iraq.html This set includes 2,165 pages of CIA, State Department, and Congressional research documents covering Iraq and Saddam Hussein. These original source documents give an important historical perspective to the relationship between the United States and Iraq. Andrew and Patrick Cockburn, Out of the Ashes, The Resurrection of Saddam Hussein, 2000

Have you read the book I cited? No, of course not so rather than dispute the cited facts let's go to poison the well logic. This could go on all day, but rather than me listing sources you could read, why not try and do a little digging? Citation: Zwick, Jim, ed. Anti-Imperialism in the United States, 1898-1935. Or "Instances of Use of United States Forces Abroad, 1798-1993" by Ellen C. Collier of the Library of Congress Congressional Research Service

Mtn Goat - You need to educate yourself on this one, it's not hard to find. Here's a book I would suggest: Blum, William. The CIA, A Forgotten History: U.S. Global Interventions Since World War 2. London: Zed Books, 1986. 428 pages It documents how the CIA helped Saddam get put in place by the CIA. The US was worried about the commies getting a foothold in the middle east. We saw Saddam as a balance against the growing Islamic movement (democratic mind you) and gave his group weapons and intelligence. As he was grabbing power the CIA, out of the Cario office, gave Saddam a list of 500 opposition group members. Saddam rounded them up and slaughtered them. These are the facts, and they are easy to find. Suggest you read up a bit.

Yes the CIA and GOVT have been diong similar things like this for over 100 years. Maybe it was Carter's administration. There was no way to tell this was giong to be the outcome back then. It's really just a weak argument for the anti war people to justify some of their political views and blunders. But this is what we ALWAYS say. We screwed up the population last time (Iran, Iraq, Columbia, Chile, etc. etc.) but we'll get it right this time. We didn't intend the dictator we put in place to develop death squads and squash the democratic movement that was there. It was merely an "unitended consequence". What a joke! It's collective memory loss. Think how much Iraq would have been without the CIA putting in Saddam in the first place. Oh, but we'll clean up our mess and spend about $500 billion in the process.

Despite my poor spelling I was being facetious.

Peter - I don't get your point. While most of the rags in the US are doing the rah-rah thing, you point to the NYT as bias because they note the facts of sporatic fighting going on outside the media circus around a stature being pulled down (by US troops). Don't see it. I would generally say that most of the US media is just pitching softballs over the plate for the war effort, with little critical analysis.

Hey, who put Sadam in power in the first place. Opps - that would be the US CIA. Ancient history I guess - we'll get it right this time. Looks like we're off to a stelar start.

I was down there a few years ago while climbing for 3 months. For a nice trek you can take the back (high) route. Catch a ski lift (they run up to the cafe) and then start your hike. Just some ridge running basically but stunning. The hut is next to a lake amongst the shrub beech. You can stay in the hut but most folks camp and get a meal and beer from the hut folks. The climing is great, there's one popular pinnacle 10 min from the hut. Gotta do Torre Principal, the highest tower. It's like 4 long pitches of around 5.8 with an 40 ft ending of "aid" - several rebar lengths pounded in and glued. That last bit is around 5.9 if you avoid yarding on the rebar (I yarded - it was getting late). Lots o' condors hannging around. You can pick up a guide (I can copy you one if you're serious) from the Barolochie Climbing Club headquarters. Relando Garribaldi authored it, was lucky enough to meet him near Fitroy before we went and he supplied beta on some good routes. Baralochie has the best chocolate also. Good bus service to Baralochie.

Sorry if I was vague, but it wasn't an anti-meat or anti-hunter post, just some information for those that hunt. I used to hunt but don't now, for no particular reason. If you hunt you would be wise to follow some of the recent guidlines for keeping nerve tissue (specifically brain and spinal cord) away from the meat. Most of the time hunters skilled in dressing do this anyway, but Montana and Wyoming game departments have put out special guidlines just in case. Haven't seen such in WA or OR.

Sure, where do you live? Actually if you have something intelligent to say about this, let us know. It would be refreshing.

Thanks for the logical and "mature" analysis.

I ran across this and thought that the hunters out there would be interested. Heads up. http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/104980312150700.xml

Took your advice on Green Butte, hooked up with a couple locals and had some fun yo-yos. Wish I had more time but was working down there. Did manage to find a great gray owl nest this weekend however! Thanks for the advice. Will have to plan a road trip some time to ski from the top.

Just got back from working down there. Got in some yo-yo turns on the peak but wasn't too high. Seems like spring has sprung there.

Sounds worthwhile then even if I only get a day out of the trip. Gotta work this weekend down there but it's all in the national forest so I'll be tromping around outside. The ski bowl sounds like the ticket for a short visit. Thanks. Outta here in a couple of hours.

How do you like the Fitzroy in anything less than alpine, say on the way up you camp in the lower lands?

Have to go near Shasta for work next week on short notice. Is it worth bringing the tele-gear to climb and ski? Never been there and don't know the seasonal access. Any info on recent access would be appreciated.

Get job and pay taxes like the rest of us.