Jim

Are we talking the same route? I'm talking about Bedal Creek to the top of the glacier - can't be more than 200 yards or so to the ramp. Or do I not remember it correctly?

Well, according to our president and Tony Blair it's not the reason we're taking hits over there and spending $4 billion a month.

I had a '69 pop top for 9 years, recently sold it to a guy that came over from Moscow, ID to buy it. I rebuilt the engine to 1776 cc, balanced crank, pistons, and cam, slightly oversized pistons, dual carbs, lightend flywheel. For a meatloaf it did ok and could cruise at 70 mph on the highway. It was a good trailhead bivy. And it had decent clearance. The best was passing the shiny SUVs diven by the yups out on the Forest Service roads. They hate dust.

Thinking of going up the tourist route on Sloan via Bedal Creek. I've done the west face a while ago so don't quite remember the bottom of the ramp. Is is possible to scamper across the top of the glacier to acess the ramp alone? Appreciate any beta.

And I would have to say that this is the non-argument that one usually gets from the right end of the spectrum when some objective facts back them into a corner. Rather than provide a feasiblie explanation that could back their opinion, there's nothing left in the quiver but sarcasim. And it's not to say you may don't have a point or two buried in there somewhere. I think Trask was a bit more honest about it - oil is the reason and it's a good reason to be stomping around the mid-east. I don't agree - but the guy is a straight shooter - or an excellent troller.

What's with the personal slams all the time? The name calling is silly. This going into major thread creep; I'll pass.

Unfortunate, but likely correct.

Hmmm. Another non-sequitur . But I'll try and pick up the discussion for you. The drift of the conservative movement in americia in it's current for is interesting. Conservative used to mean conducting government conservatively - fiscal responsibility, cautious action abroad, and diplomacy before foreign intervention. The current form seems to be opposed to these values, particlularly regarding the burdening of our current economy and future generations with mountains of debt and foreign interventions. It's astonishing how fast we've gone from budget supluses and reduction of the national debt to the current drain on the treasury. I would prefer tax and spend to borrow and spend. And the current tax refund you or I will receive pales in comparison to the breaks of the elite. Bushie and friends included.

Huh?? Ah the paternal conservatives will take care of all those free-thinking children. Oh that's good. And as far as wealth-redistribution - the conservatives have been doing a fine job of that, and continue to do so under the current administration. But if one points out the continue benefits being laid at the feet of the upper income brackets the conservatives cry "class warfare". Well I guess it is, and they're winning.

60 mile road ride on Saturday and then a run (well brisk walk) up Mt. Pugh. Great day but the combination of the ride and the 5,300 ft elevation gain left me a bit leg weary. Hat's off to the young buck who cruised by us halfway up and not breaking a sweat.

And doing one darn good job of it.

Don't know about the future but for the recent past and the present the Administration is setting records for job loss!! http://www.house.gov/appropriations_democrats/WorstJobPerformance1.pdf

Now don't get you're shorts twisted here. The issue is if our GIS getting plugged daily and us spending $4 billion a month there is justified. You state '"Bush was right". Saddam was a liar - well duh! So that's the justification!! If the next democrat pesident leads us down a similar domestic and foreign policy rat hole your criticism will be well deserved.

Indeed, it's grim. Especially with no demonstrable reason to be there.

Maybe we just need to double our budget there to $2 billion a month!

Hey buddy - I certainly would be glad to see any WMDs taken out of circulation, but now we're going to tie the invasion to some outdated, sand-choked MIGs? It's another PR scramble to cover the lies.

Maybe we could get a recall on the white house for digging use a deeper pit that CA is in. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/133009_spend31.html

Even if it was a nest it's way past the nesting season and no problem.

Various officials differed in opinion as to whether the buried aircraft could ever fly again. "Our guys have found 30-something brand new aircraft buried in the sand to deny us access to them," Goss said. "These are craft we didn't know about." He said the planes were not considered weapons of mass destruction for which coalition troops have been searching for months, "but they are weapons (Iraq) tried to hide." Looks like another PR attempt to shift the discussion off WMDs.

Are you Bush's speech writer?

Good point. The logical question to ask is how much more stable these regimes would have turned out if we had not installed the Shah in Iran and Saddam in Iraq. Possibly better, but certainly not worse than the current situation.

Sorry for the long post but here's an exerpt from the report: you can read about our glorious exports to Iraq at: http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/medsearch/FocusAreas/riegle_report/report/report_s01.htm#Chapter%201.%20Iraqi%20Chemical%20and%20Biological%20Warfare%20Capability But hey, we're the good guys. U.S. Exports of Biological Materials to Iraq The Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs has oversight responsibility for the Export Administration Act. Pursuant to the Act, Committee staff contacted the U.S. Department of Commerce and requested information on the export of biological materials during the years prior to the Gulf War. After receiving this information, we contacted a principal supplier of these materials to determine what, if any, materials were exported to Iraq which might have contributed to an offensive or defensive biological warfare program. Records available from the supplier for the period from 1985 until the present show that during this time, pathogenic (meaning "disease producing"), toxigenic (meaning "poisonous"), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Records prior to 1985 were not available, according to the supplier. These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction. According to the Department of Defense's own Report to Congress on the Conduct of the Persian Gulf War, released in April 1992: "By the time of the invasion of Kuwait, Iraq had developed biological weapons. It's advanced and aggressive biological warfare program was the most advanced in the Arab world... The program probably began late in the 1970's and concentrated on the development of two agents, botulinum toxin and anthrax bacteria... Large-scale production of these agents began in 1989 at four facilities near Baghdad. Delivery means for biological agents ranged from simple aerial bombs and artillery rockets to surface-to-surface missiles." [55] Included in the approved sales are the following biological materials (which have been considered by various nations for use in war), with their associated disease symptoms:[56] Bacillus Anthracis: anthrax is a disease producing bacteria identified by the Department of Defense in The Conduct of the Persian Gulf War: Final Report to Congress, as being a major component in the Iraqi biological warfare program. Anthrax is an often-fatal infectious disease due to ingestion of spores. It begins abruptly with high fever, difficulty in breathing, and chest pain. The disease eventually results in septicemia (blood poisoning), and the mortality is high. Once septicemia is advanced, antibiotic therapy may prove useless, probably because the exotoxins remain, despite the death of the bacteria. Clostridium Botulinum: a bacterial source of botulinum toxin, which causes vomiting, constipation, thirst, general weakness, headache, fever, dizziness, double vision, dilation of the pupils and paralysis of the muscles involving swallowing. It is often fatal. Histoplasma Capsulatum: causes a disease superficially resembling tuberculosis that may cause pneumonia, enlargement of the liver and spleen, anemia, an influenza-like illness and an acute inflammatory skin disease marked by tender red nodules, usually on the shins. Reactivated infection usually involves the lungs, the brain, spinal membranes, heart, peritoneum, and the adrenals. Brucella Melitensis: a bacteria which can cause chronic fatigue, loss of appetite, profuse sweating when at rest, pain in joints and muscles, insomnia, nausea, and damage to major organs. Clostridium Perfringens: highly toxic bacteria, which cause gas gangrene. The bacteria produce toxins that move along muscle bundles in the body killing cells and producing necrotic tissue that is then favorable for further growth of the bacteria itself. Eventually, these toxins and bacteria enter the bloodstream and cause a systemic illness. In addition, several shipments of Escherichia Coli (E.Coli) and genetic materials, as well as human and bacterial DNA, were shipped directly to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission. The following is a detailed listing of biological materials, provided by the American Type Culture Collection, which were exported to agencies of the government of Iraq pursuant to the issuance of an export licensed by the U.S. Commerce Department: [57] Date : February 8, 1985 Sent to : Iraq Atomic Energy Agency Materials Shipped: Ustilago nuda (Jensen) Rostrup Date: February 22, 1985 Sent to: Ministry of Higher Education Materials Shipped: Histoplasma capsulatum var. farciminosum (ATCC 32136) Class III pathogen Date: July 11, 1985 Sent to: Middle and Near East Regional A Materials Shipped: Histoplasma capsulatum var. farciminosum (ATCC 32136) Class III pathogen Date: May 2, 1986 Sent to: Ministry of Higher Education Materials Shipped: Bacillus Anthracis Cohn (ATCC 10) Batch # 08-20-82 (2 each) Class III pathogen. Bacillus Subtitles (Ehrenberg) Con (ATCC 82) Batch # 06-20-84 (2 each) Clostridium botulinum Type A (ATCC 3502) Batch# 07-07-81 (3 each) Class III Pathogen Clostridium perfringens (Weillon and Zuber) Hauduroy, et al (ATCC 3624) Batch# 10-85SV (2 each) Bacillus subtilis (ATCC 6051) Batch# 12-06-84 (2 each) Francisella tularensis var. tularensis Olsufiev (ATCC 6223) Batch# 05-14-79 (2 each) Avirulent; suitable for preparations of diagnostic antigens. Clostridium tetani (ATCC 9441) Batch 03-94 (3 each) Highly toxigenic. Clostridium botulinum Type E (ATCC 9564) Batch# 03-02-79 (2 each) Class III pathogen Clostridium tetani (ATCC 10779) Batch# 04-24-84S (3 each) Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 12916) Batch# 08-14-80 (2 each) Agglutinating Type 2. Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 13124) Batch# 08-14-80 (3 each) Type A, alpha-toxigenic, produces lecithinase C.J. Appl, Bacillus Anthracis (ATCC 14185) Batch# 01-14-80 (3 each) G.G. Wright (Fort Detrick) V770-NPI-R. Bovine anthrax, Class III pathogen Bacillus Anthracis (ATCC 14578) Batch# 01-06-78 (2 each) Class III pathogen. Bacillus megaterium (ATCC 14581) Batch# 04-18-85 (2 each) Bacillus megaterium (ATCC 14945) Batch# 06-21-81 (2 each) Clostridium botulinum Type E (ATCC 17855) Batch# 06-21-71 Class III pathogen. Bacillus megaterium (ATCC 19213) Batch# 3-84 (2 each) Clostridium botulinum Type A (ATCC 19397) Batch# 08-18-81 (2 each) Class III pathogen Brucella abortus Biotype 3 (ATCC 23450) Batch# 08-02-84 (3 each) Class III pathogen Brucella abortus Biotype 9 (ATCC 23455) Batch# 02-05-68 (3 each) Class III pathogen Brucella melitensis Biotype I (ATCC 23456) Batch# 03-08-78 (2 each) Class III pathogen Brucella melitensis Biotype 3 (ATCC 23458) Batch# 01-29-68 (2 each) Class III pathogen Clostridium botulinum Type A (ATCC 25763) Batch# 8-83 (2 each) Class III pathogen Clostridium botulinum Type F (ATCC 35415) Batch# 02-02-84 (2 each) Class III pathogen Date: August 31, 1987 Sent to: State Company for Drug Industries Materials Shipped: Saccharomyces cerevesiae (ATCC 2601) Batch# 08-28-08 (1 each) Salmonella choleraesuis subsp. choleraesuis Serotype typhi (ATCC 6539) Batch# 06-86S (1 each) Bacillus subtillus (ATCC 6633) Batch# 10-85 (2 each) Klebsiella pneumoniae subsp. pneumoniae (ATCC 10031) Batch# 08-13-80 (1 each) Escherichia coli (ATCC 10536) Batch# 04-09-80 (1 each) Bacillus cereus (11778) Batch# 05-85SV (2 each) Staphylococcus epidermidis (ATCC 12228) Batch# 11-86s (I each)| Bacillus pumilus (ATCC 14884) Batch# 09-08-80 (2each) Date : July 11, 1988 Sent to : Iraq Atomic Energy Commission Materials Shipped: Escherichia coli (ATCC 11303) Batch# 04-87S Phage host Cauliflower Mosaic Caulimovirus (ATCC45031) Batch# 06-14-85 Plant virus Plasmid in Agrobacterium Turnefaciens (ATCC37349) Ti plasmid for co-cultivation with plant integration vectors in E. Coli) Batch# 05-28-85 Date: April 26, 1988 Sent to: Iraq Atomic Energy Commission Materials Shipped: Hulambda4x-8, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase (HPRT) Chromosome(s) X q26.1 (ATCC 57236) Phage vector; Suggested host: E.coli Hulambdal4-8, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase (HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57240) Phage vector; Suggested host: E.coli Hulambda15, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase (HPRT) Chromosome(s) X q26.1 (ATCC 57242) Phage vector; Suggested host: E.coli Date: August 31, 1987 Sent to: Iraq Atomic Energy Commission Materials Shipped: Escherichia coli (ATCC 23846) Batch# 07-29-83 (1 each) Escherichia coli (ATCC 33694) Batch# 05-87 (1 each) Date: September 29, 1988 Sent to: Ministry of Trade Materials Shipped: Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 240) Batch#05-14-63 (3 each) Class III pathogen Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 938) Batch#1963 (3 each) Class III pathogen Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 3629) Batch#10-23-85 (3 each) Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 8009) Batch#03-30-84 (3 each) Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 8705) Batch# 06-27-62 (3 each) Class III pathogen Brucella abortus; (ATCC 9014) Batch# 05-11-66 (3 each) Class III pathogen Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 10388) Batch# 06-01-73 (3 each) Bacillus anthracis (.ATCC 11966) Batch# 05-05-70 (3 each) Class III pathogen Clostridium botulinum Type A Batch# 07-86 (3 each) Class III pathogen Bacillus cereus (ATCC 33018) Batch# 04-83 (3 each) Bacillus ceres (ATCC 33019) Batch# 03-88 (3 each) Date : January 31, 1989 Sent to : Iraq Atomic Energy Commission Materials Shipped: PHPT31, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase (HPRT) Chromosome(s) X q26.1 (ATCC 57057) plambda5OO, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase pseudogene (HPRT) Chromosome(s): 5 p14-pI3 (ATCC 57212) Date: January 17, 1989 Sent to: Iraq Atomic Energy Commission Materials Shipped: Hulambda4x-8, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase (HPRT) Chromosome(s) X q26.1 (ATCC 57237) Phage vector Suggested host: E.coli Hulambda14, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase (HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57240) Cloned from human lymphoblast Phage vector Suggested host: E.coli Hulambda15, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase (HPRT) Chromosome(s) X q26.1 (ATCC 57241) Phage vector Suggested host: E.coli Additionally, the Centers for Disease Control has compiled a listing of biological materials shipped to Iraq prior to the Gulf War. The listing covers the period from October 1, 1984 (when the CDC began keeping records) through October 13, 1993. The following materials with biological warfare significance were shipped to Iraq during this period:[58] Date: November 28, 1989 Sent to: University of Basrah, College of Science, Department of Biology Materials Shipped: Enterococcus faecalis Enterococcus faecium Enterococcus avium Enterococcus raffinosus Enterococcus gallinarium. Enterococcus durans Enterococcus hirae Streptococcus bovis (etiologic) Date: April 21, 1986 Sent to: Officers City Al-Muthanna, Quartret 710, Street 13, Close 69 House 2811, Baghdad, Iraq Materials Shipped: vial botulinum toxoid (non-infectious) Date: March 10, 1986 Sent to: Officers City Al-Muthanna, Quartret 710, Street 13, Close 69 House 28/1, Baghdad, Iraq Materials Shipped: 1 vial botulinum toxoid #A2 (non-infectious) Date: June 25, 1985 Sent to: University of Baghdad, College of Medicine , Department of Microbiology Materials Shipped: 3 yeast cultures (etiologic) Candida. sp. Date : May21, 1985 Sent to : Basrah, Iraq Materials Shipped: Lyophilized arbovirus seed (etiologic) West Nile Fever Virus Date: April 26, 1985 Sent to: Minister of Health, Ministry of Health, Baghdad, Iraq Materials Shipped: 8 vials antigen and antisera (r. rickettsii and r. typhi) to diagnose rickettsial infections (non-infectious)

One more small item - while this report does address conventional arms it says nothing about US transfer of WMD technology transfer to Iraq from the US, including bio and chemical starts and technical information. WMD was a main issue in this - or used to be I guess. The information on what we transfered is available in some Congressional defense committee reports - I can post the reference tomorrow if you're not aware of it - don't have it on the work computer.

Aside from the personal snide remarks, you have one point. That we should clean up our messes and other countries contributed to the messes. How about this original idea - stop sticking our noses where they are not wanted or needed in the first place. Sure, the europeans aren't clean on this either. There were a lot of money grubbers. See: "Hypocrisy" below. The second point I'd like to make is that we tolerate and even institute repressive regimes as long as they toe the american line. The US was the main force behind the assigination of Salvador Allende -who was democratically elected - and Pinochet was put in his place. Chile then suffered decades of brutal human rights repression. But hey, that guy was OK cause he was our guy. Funny you didn't see a Coalition of the Willing formed to oust him, or what's going on in Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Isarel. Oh - they're on our side, is that the proper response? It's the same in Iraq, he was our guy until he didn't listen to orders anymore.