Don_Serl

actually, there's a photo on the Climbing magazine site... http://climbing.com/news/bignewmtlogan/ cheers, don

joe, there's a good en-route photo in Gripped - how about posting a photo of the mtn/face here... cheers, don

CAJ'85 p 26. incl photo with route-line. FA Bill Pilling and Greg Collum Aug'84. IV 5.8. the steep right-hand (N) buttress has had a cpl attempts, but it seems it gets very hard abt 3 pitches up. Simon Richardson and Mark Robson were just in there (came out 3 days ago); Foweraker and co poked around maybe a decade ago... cheers, don

the N face is huge, and vertical/overhanging at the top for a long way. i'm no base-jumper, but i'd be surprised if it wasn't do-able. there are decent photos in the mtn literature (Alpine Select, for instance), but check bivouac.com for a better view: http://www.bivouac.com/PhotoPg.asp?PhotoId=4404 cheers,

pms, good eye - good possibilities... as for GC, it's the tower directly above/behind Phantom Tower in the photo on pg 352. see also pg 461. cheers,

one more vote for the Mythos, sized so you can get sox into them. buy 'em fairly tight to begin with - they stretch... cheers,

Fishstick: hey old friend, how's it going? what Jo Jo is really on about is trying to compare the route he and Dave Dornian did on the NW face of MacArthur to... (anything else in the world) - some details in the latest Gripped. i wuz in there in 1991 with Mike Down and Jim Haberl to attempt this thing, but the seracs up top looked frightening, and the face kinda over-awed us with its hugeness and unrelenting steepness. so we climbed the W ridge instead/first, to suss out the whole deal. in one portion were forced to traverse out onto the NW-facing icy terrain. similar to Jo Jo's experience, this was BY FAR the hardest alpine ice (in the "impenetrable" sense, not difficulty) i've ever encountered. crampons just barely scratched in, and an ice screw had to be hammered and hammered to get it to rotate in far enough to make it worth clipping - and the head broke off while trying to remove it! we got up in 2 days, then got hammered by a 4-day storm on the summit plateau and were mighty glad to emerge alive, so any thoughts of then cracking off the face disappeared. my maps show it at a full 6000 feet, and while there might be a few Himalayan faces of that height (E face of Dhaulagiri comes to mind???), and maybe a line or two in the Antarctic (Tyree, etc???), this is way bigger and steeper than the largest ice routes in the Alps - the Marinelli couloir on the E face of the Dom is 1600m, but it's mostly 50º, and most usually snowy/neve rather than grey doom. good on ya, Joe - a MIGHTY hard alpine route. cheers,

1. walk up to Wedgemount Lake and do the outlet couloir on Rethel and/or the W couloir on Wedge and/or the N face of Parkhurst. better yet, do them all... 2. NW face on Matier 3. central couloir on Joffre NE face is probably in good shape by now. [maybe at the hard end of your spectrum] 4. N face (Stonecrop Glcr) on Slalok via whatever variation you choose (steeper or completely casual). 5. there are others... lotsa info on all these on bivouac.com - pay your dues and enjoy... cheers,

jesse, oh, janez will survive somehow... fact is, he's off in the Bugs for the best part of a month - he won't be suffering. cheers,

Climb: Waddington Range update - July-Aug 2005-various new routes Date of Climb: 8/11/2005 Trip Report: Craig McGee, Sean Easton, and Eammon Walsh spent some time on the S side of the Wadd. Their major accomplishment was putting up a new ice route (called the "Uber Groove") well left of the Haberl-Reid. The line is under the Epaulet Glacier, but the seracs looked laid-back and there was no debris below, so they were "somewhat at ease". There were 10 or 11 65m pitches, the 1st being the crux at 5X, then consistent WI5 and WI4, easing to WI3 at the top. Craig reports that Eammon and Sean (ice gods, for sure) say "it was their best pure water ice climb ever". The crew then got about 80% of the way up the prominent S buttress on the NW summit, but some looseness, lack of a compelling feature to the climbing, cold, and finally a developing snow-storm put an end to the attempt. The threesome then flipped over to the Tiedemann, where they made the coveted (and oft attempted) first ascent of the Grand Cappuccino, via the SW buttress. The first 4 pitches were 5.8, then it steepened, and the next 6 pitches finished with a 5.11 crux on the final pitch. Craig says "Great line, awesome position and climbing": the route is named "Moran Latte". Jia Condon and John Walsh got scooped on the Cappuccino, but did a direct variation on the S ridge of Serra 2 on the way back out - directly up the crest from the Cappuccino col (from the intersection of rtes 274 and 275, pg 352, Wadd Guide). They then went onto the S buttress of Tiedemann with no bivy gear, starting at 2 a.m., intent on a speed ascent. They had a "sit" above the 2nd tower next nite for 4 hours (see photos pgs 316 and 317, Wadd Guide), having freed all the climbing to this point (5.10+/11-), and finished via a major new variation, up the snow/ice/mixed gully left of #236. They topped out about 30 hours after starting. BUUUUT.... the S facing descent gullies were stone-swept and riddled with crevasses, plus the weather was breaking down a day earlier than forecast. SOOOO... they bailed down the N ridge into the upper Chaos Glacier cirque, got on the radio, and called Mike King to pull them out. He JUST was able to do this, late in the evening after his fire-watch shift, with clouds swirling in and out - lucky boys - the following 2 1/2 days saw 6 FEET of snow dumped on an American Alpine Institute party high on Waddington! Woulda been MIGHTY unpleasant to bivy... There are still a couple powerful parties "in the field", so there will be more to report once they hit civilization. cheers, Approach Notes: Whitesaddle Air

Climb: Bifrost Pass (Delusion, Frontier, Cornelia)-various routes Date of Climb: 7/23/2005 Trip Report: Andrew Rennie and I flew to Bifrost Pass on the northern fringe of the Waddington Range on the evening of July 23 and climbed in the area for the following 12 days. Details (with cross references to the Waddington Guide) follow. We scrambled Pk 2560W [rte 5; pg 108] for exercise and to recce on the 24th - I quit at the "tricky" notch - perhaps there was more snow when the earlier ascent was made? The east face of Delusion didn't look too appealing from 2560W, so we opted for the W ridge instead. This consisted of mostly scrambling on very nice, featured, solid rock, with 3 steps: #1 entailed a pitch of 5.8 (with an optional 10m 5.10 hand-crack that Andrew could not resist); #2 was mostly bypassed on the right; #3 was immediately below the summit and started with a 5.9 wide-crack to easier grooves (55m), then finished with a 10m steep right-facing 5.9 corner leading to a short 5.10 bulge, all on superb rock. We downclimbed the S face [rte 7]; the routeline on the upper part should be further right than it appears in the photo on pg 114 bottom. We then recced the E face of Cornelia and Frontier. There's undoubtedly a way up thru the lower 100m of the E face, but there is then a cpl hundred more metres of steep slabby terrain, and the overall impression didn't strike me as very climbable - or perhaps I should say "enjoyable". (see pgs 136-137) The E ridge on the E tower of Frontier (rt skyline pg 135 upper) had appealed to me from long ago, but on closer acquaintance the SE buttress (sun/shade line, same photo) looked like the far more solid and consistent line. This we climbed on the 27th. The route starts with about 150m of scrambling - we belayed when the grooves started to get discontinuous. We belayed a cpl pitches to a prominent blocky ledge, above which the buttress steepens - there were goat tracks on the lower east ridge crest leading up to, then across this traverse! There were 7 or 8 pitches on the next section, with a fair amount of 5.8, a few 20m sections of easy ground, a cpl 5.9 cruxes, and one full-on pull-like-hell left-leaning crack past a bulge 5.10 crux towards the top. The crest then nearly levels for a ropelength, then the headwall looms - this went surprisingly easily, despite appearances - 5.9 at most, trending up and left - good face-climbing low down, then an angling crack system thru very solid rock. All that remained was to walk 70m to the previously unclimbed 2800m+ summit. A 50m rappel got us down the headwall, then a very loose dyke/ledge led right (facing out) into the S-facing snow gully, which took us without complication back to the basin. While our tower was generally sound, the main summit looked every bit as loose as the earlier parties made it sound - the routeline for #12 should traverse w-a-a-a-y left, nearly to the SW ridge, before making for the top. We called the route "Miles From Ordinary", and we have the Corona photos to prove it! We started for the W side of Cornelia on the 29th, but the weather looked threatening, and an opportune radio chat with Mike King confirmed expected deterioration the following day. We left the heavy gear at a col abt 45mins above camp, and got back to the tent just as the rain arrived. It POURED for the next 2 1/2 days, nearly without respite. An Amer Alp Inst party high on Waddington got 6 FEET(!) of snow during this storm - it was not pleasant, but at least we were in our base-camp tent, not bivved somewhere. Once the weather cleared, we tramped up to the W side of Cornelia (very easy 3 hrs via the pass N of the mtn) to a lovely bivy spot with a sheltering rock buttress above and running water just 50m away. We attempted one of the fine rock pillars on the W side (actually, the upper half of which appears rising from the right to the subsidiary snow-summit in the middle of the photo on pg 137 upper), but after half a pitch of very hard 5.10, the inability to traverse into our "chosen" dihedral, looseness, and overhangs above forced a retreat. As consolation, we tramped up a still-nicely-frozen gully to the col above, angled up the steep NE-facing snow (facing in the photo), and did a pitch of rock and then a pitch of snow to the top of the subsidiary summit (abt 2900m; also previously unclimbed). We then sorta "4th classed" the ridge to the main summit in sorta 3 ropelengths - there was some nice secure dry-tooling and even one aid move on a piton to enliven the affair. We descended S, then took off down the first snow-gully S of the W ridge - this (as usual) got complicated low down, but we downclimbed further on the rib to its left (S), then crossed right (W), trying to get back around to the bivy. We got forced quite a long way down, altho we stayed at least 200m above the glacier, then we found heathery ramps to traverse W-ward. Finally, by headlamp, we tramped back up heather, then scree, then snow about 400m to our bivy, arriving at midnite. We tramped lazily back to basecamp the next morning, downed most (but not all) of our remaining (impressive) beer supply, and flew out to a great Laurie King breakfast on the morning of the 4th. Gear Notes: 2 x 8.5mm X 60 ropes. about a dozen nuts. 6 to 10 cams to #3Camalot size - finger and hand sized were most useful. long, medium, and short Blades plus a cpl Lost Arrows (useful again and again!) and a baby angle. ice tool as alpine hammer. Approach Notes: Whitesaddle, of course...

jordop, my guess is that Odin's Ice is the corner to the left - no one seems to know for sure, but that's consistent with what appears in bivouac.com. 30hrs continuous car-to-car in winter for that route - stout lads... cheers, don

Climb: Mount Ossa (northern Tantalus Range)-North Face ("Reaction Time") Date of Climb: 7/17/2005 Trip Report: Andrew Rennie and I walked up thru superb forest (REALLY nice hiking, altho very steep in places low down!) into Sigurd Ck - see Matt Gunn's "Scrambles" guide for good description. 6 hrs to fine campsite on flats below glacier. Up at 3, away at 4. Up glacier well to left to avoid serac hazard. Across flats, then easy descent into basin beneath peak. At schrund 7:30. VERY difficult crossing: suspended ice blocks (OK) to 10m fine blocky solid rock (OK), then about 8m of 85º snow - took 1 1/2 hrs to carve a diagonal groove - no pro (of course), with nasty ledges below. The crux of the route... Once onto the rock, we found excellent climbing on generally superb rock - nearly as good as the Chehalis! P1, 50m: direct up 10m 5.8 face, then diagonal far right to below dihedrals on crest. P2, 20m: fucked up and took wrong dihedral, moved left and belayed. loose. P3, 50m: mount block on left face, step onto face, climb to right-facing corner (10m 5.9), then easier along crest to left. P4, 100m: move together along crest to left, then turn rightwards as crest swings towards summit. P5, 55m: continue up rib (some 5.8). P6, 30m: continue to top of rib below right side of snowfield (some 5.8). P7, 55m: traverse slabs 20m left beneath snowfield, climb wet slabs 10m to back left corner of snow (no pro to this point, mid 5th); climb onto wall right of grotty chimney (great flake), move out right, then up, then back left to a crack on mostly small but square-cut holds you have to discover by committing to moving (10m 5.10-); move up and right to belay. P8, 35m: angle up grooves to right (some 5.8), then cross left to reach top to avoid climbing directly above belay - some loose blocks. Total time on route (excluding schrund) 5 1/2 hrs. Superb views, then down W ridge. Continue down crest well beyond a little valley to trio of lakes - we did not, and had to cut back HARD right (east) to avoid being cliffed out. Camp-to-camp 15hrs. We were tired, so we stayed a 2nd nite, got up at 3 again and walked out - took 5 hrs tho, so we were NOT early for breakfast... Nor did I get any work done that day... Excellent rock in a nice valley with some of the finest forest-walking I've ever encountered on the approach - what's not to like? cheers, don Gear Notes: maybe a dozen nuts, 7 or 8 cams to #2 Camalot (?). placed one Lost Arrow on P5 to protect a slabby traverse. took only 1 tool (hammer) each, which was fine cuz we could lower them to second the schrund wall. Approach Notes: Sigurd Creek trail (from Ashlu road)

Climb: Mount Roach-North Ridge (Hobo's Way) Date of Climb: 7/1/2005 Trip Report: Mount Roach is a fine summit west of Lytton, up in the dry country where one can often get an outing in even when the weather is bad on the coast. Andrew Rennie and I drove up and walked into the west fork of Stryen Creek on Thursday in improving weather, camping NW of the summit after 6 hours travel (one section of bad blow-down above the forks). On the Friday we headed straight up-slope (minimal bush) to reach the ridgecrest, then followed this to the base of the upper ridge (3 hrs from camp). The lower section of the ridge is very compact and somewhat slabby, but is mostly scrambling to about 5.7 - I asked for a top-rope from Andrew on two 5m sections. A gentler section follows. The headwall of the ridge was taken directly. The 1st pitch started with beautiful twin cracks in a corner leading to a moderate-angled offwidth and left angling ramps [40m, 5.9]. The 2nd pitch began with some tenuous leftwards moves up a ramp before thin cracks were reached [30, 5.9]. The final short pitch took excellent cracks on the left [20m, 5.8]. Summit was reached in about 3 hrs climbing [425mH; about AD+]. Descent was made via the easy upper half on the ENE ridge, then a scruffy ramp leading N'ward to the superb treeline lake N of the summit. Camp was regained 11 1/2 hrs after departure. A partial walkout (to a cabin at "The Forks") was made in 2 1/2 hrs in the evening, and civilization was regained in intermittent showers on Sat morning. We were accompanied by a remarkably energetic local wolf/dog cross (except for the actual climbing) - thus the name. A more-full account can be found at: http://www.bivouac.com/TripPg.asp?TripId=5594 cheers, don p.s. the line climbed is the sun/shade line right of the summit. the descent ramp lies down and left, sunlit. Gear Notes: 45m 10.2mm rope; 9 nuts, 5 cams, 20 biners, slings. We used an iceaxe for a very short portion of the descent ramp; not necessary later in season. Should have carried dogfood... Approach Notes: Mostly good travel on west fork Stryen Creek trail from Stein Valley parking lot.

oh ye of little faith, the forecast was dead on for the past 4 days, and you could see a usable break coming on "the dry side", if not the coast: Thursday poor to improving, Friday sunny, Saturday back to showers. so i took Thu off work and headed for Lytton with Andrew Rennie. we left Van in rain, arrived in Lytton just as the last showers departed, and walked into the west fork of Stryen Creek in pleasant cool weather. we had a clear nite, then did the FA of the beautiful N ridge of Mount Roach, enjoying mostly clear but cold and windy weather - and a snow squall which engulfed us on the summit. we walked out Sat in intermittent showers, again just as forecast. perfect! i've got a TR up on bivouac.com: http://www.bivouac.com/TripPg.asp?TripId=5594 ~425m; lotsa scrambling to about 5.7 on beautiful, firm, compact rock with 3p of 5.9 at the very top; about AD+. i'll post something here once i get permission to use one of Justin Brown's photos. so, good work Jesse; you too, Murray... cheers,

Quarks climb everything well. their only disadvantages in alpine situations are: 1. the knob on the bottom of the shaft interferes with shaft-plunging in snow. this is not an issue in softer snow, but can be a serious impediment in firm snow. if it's firm enough to resist the shaft, however, it's usually firm enuf to hold the pick - just swing it instead of plunging it... 2. related to this comment, the thinner pick is brilliant in ice, but touchy in neve. think about getting a pair of the thicker 4mm picks for alpine use - they give much better resistance to pulling thru snow/soft ice. (this puts u in the same camp as the Aztars, but a touch of filing eases extraction) weight is a non-issue: is see 15grams difference in the published wts. swing 'em both and you'll end up with Quarks - the balance is better, and the metallic vibration that you feel when the Aztar "hits" just isn't there with the Quark. btw, my "dream" tools for alpine are my old Quasars. i slipped in the 4mm picks, filed 'em a touch to ease placement and extraction, ground off most of the bulges at the bottom of the shafts for plunging, and hack-sawed and filed the "hump" off the back end of the picks to make the head comfy to hold. superb! p.s. it isn't that Aztars "suck" at anything - they just were put together with different design priorities. cheers,

http://www.pbase.com/nolock/image/42292872 De Jong-McGregor's "Arctic Wing" takes the righthand couloir. Fraser and Ourom's "Fraser Ribber" climbs the rib to its left. the Beckham-Serl-Wittmayer "North Couloir" ascends the next gully left. Lowe and Keisel's "North Rib" takes the sharply defined rib leading to the notch north of the upper mountain, then climbs the upper face direct. (Note: the notch is not the obvious one on the skyline, but a snowy notch below and in front of it. Note also: McLane and Murrell climbed the upper portion of the North Couloir prior to the B-S-W winter ascent, having been forced off the North Rib by bad early season snow.) "The Heart of Darkness" is the distinct shadowed line - and while Guy deserves great credit for his bold attempt, so does Jeremy Frimer for being bold enough to go up with him - not to mention Peder Ourom, Perry Beckham, and others who made a couple determined attempts in the early '80s. these guys were REALLY good wall climbers, and the fact that they failed ought to indicate something about the compactness of the rock at the crux. as Colin says, it'll get climbed one day. aside from the technicality of the crux, the major problem is the requirement for completely calm weather, cuz the "ditch" collects ALL the spindrift from the entire north face, and when it gets running, even in "good" weather, the flow is immense (as Peder can attest)... cheers,

hello, update: my airing on this thread of my concerns about the possible future direction of MEC prompted several off-line calls from key people in MEC. the essence of the message in the resulting conversations over the past couple weeks was: a) the merchandise department (the folk responsible for products) remain committed to serving hard-core climbers, backcountry skiers, and so on. in fact, goods are being designed with specific end-uses like ice climbing, mountaineering, etc in mind especially to combat the “generalization” of products. and, b) there has been considerable movement at the board level to allow this to happen. in essence, what I am told is that, after long involved discussions, the board has: 1. continued to refine the governance model for MEC by formalizing its role in setting broad policy on product direction, while leaving all specifics to management as operational decisions, and 2. acknowledged that margin is not the only tool for managing prices, and that the goal for MEC is not the “lowest” price (Walmart and Canadian Tire own that part of the market), but competitive, market-based pricing (“lowest reasonable price”, as the Mission Statement so appropriately reads), plus 3. approved changes to the costing structure which will more correctly “capture” development, sourcing, and procurement costs in the products for which those costs are generated. these steps allay some of my concerns for MEC’s future. in my earlier postings, I made it clear that I felt MEC had no chance of adequately serving core users unless the desire to do so was reinforced in the co-op; the costs of doing so were acknowledged and accepted; and that these costs were covered either by increases in margin or by attribution to “cost of goods sold”. in all 3 instances, the situation seems to be quite different than it was 2 years ago, which is very hopeful. these are necessary steps, but not sufficient in and of themselves. these steps deal with intentions and structures, and it’s absolutely necessary to get those fundamentals right. however, good intentions do not put great products on the shelves, nor do they make people aware of that greatness. most crucially, in my view, MEC still lacks enough design “horsepower” to accomplish the job. those currently on staff are talented, hard-working, dedicated people, but there aren’t enough of them, and sometimes they are not well equipped to handle the tasks that are set in front of them. (and here let me make it clear once again that I’m not dumping on people’s abilities, I’m commenting about their suitabilities. by analogy, Donovan Bailey was a truly remarkable 100m sprinter, but no one expected him to be winning marathons – and in my view, I reckon too frequently MEC expects its employees to “win” in “races” which are not their strength.) in fact, MEC has lost 2 experienced designers in the past year, although one hiring has also just taken place. I understand that efforts will continue to find, attract, and hire more designers, and I’m also heartened to learn that MEC’s tradition of “real world” background testing of fabrics and designs before release to market is continuing, and even expanding. as well, it sounds like there are also strong processes in place (some new) to dig out user concerns, needs, opinions, and feedback early in the product specification stage and throughout the design process. in summary then, I’m better informed this week than I was last, and more optimistic as a result. some important steps which are necessary to giving MEC a chance have been taken. most importantly, the “margin” issue seems finally to have been put to rest, which removes a 20-year impediment to serving more-dedicated users with more-specialized products – I never thought I’d live to see the day! much remains to be done – design has been mentioned, and the merchandising/informing/educating/explaining side of the co-op remains woefully under-resourced, given the volume and speciality of the products it needs to deal with, for instance – but at least the cost-cutting, lowest-price, mass-market sensibility of 2 years ago reportedly has been abandoned by the board and senior management. there seems to me to now be realistic grounds for hope. cheers, don serl

aaah, scotty, that'd be "lysergic acid diethylamide"... cheers,

doesn't begin to show the whole thing, but you can get an idea of the face from this photo (if you're a member): http://www.bivouac.com/PhotoPg.asp?PhotoId=1570 on the left... glenn woodsworth is the only one i know who has "full-frontals", and they are chilling indeed. big, complicated, threatened by serac-bands... and loose as hell... which means it'll probably get skied this spring! cheers,

you're going in april - there won't be ice for screws (not that there ever is up there). marko's got it right: crampons and an axe, and you're fine. i doubt anyone has EVER rapped those slopes... but they HAVE been skied a few times. cheers,

what a wonderful rendering - a talented guy, for sure. but too bad the view is limited to the NCNP - some of the most interesting peaks in the north cascades lie just across the border in canada: border peaks, slesse, rexford, the cheam range, etc. (in fact, as i look at the view again, i note that everything north of nooksack river is missing, including the american stuff: tomyhoi, etc.) not to slam the guy or anything - this is remarkable work - but mountain ranges are much better viewed as orographic wholes, not subdivided by our human-imposed cultural/political limitations. cheers, don

Welch Pk N face, Rennie/Serl Mar'05 routeline marked; belays at blue ticks. cheers,

tks for the concern, Jay, but to be clear: 1. i was not alienated and driven away - my position (Product Manager Apparel) along with about 60 others was eliminated. while i was, of course, personally disappointed to lose my job, i've moved on, and i'm doing fine. my larger concern, long-term, is that these actions were not well planned; not part of a clarification of MEC's direction, vision, mission, role, etc; not well thought thru as to effect; and that they are hampering MEC's ability to serve its members today and to cope with the demands of tomorrow. 2. nobody was replaced by "top-ropers, day-hikers, and car-campers". the positions were eliminated, and nobody "new" was brought in. in a few cases (store trainers, for instance) mistakes were recognized quickly and the positions regenerated. a few others have reappeared in one guise or another, due to the demands of the business. otherwise, MEC staff are just having to cope best they can. cheers,

i've used quite a few electrons on this issue already, but i need to spend a few more... to clarify, i listed a number of business activities that need to be undertaken in order for a business to thrive and/or for a line to remain innovative. i talked about the costs of those activities, and their potential effect on margin. there is another way of dealing with those costs, a more "real-world" way, which MEC already does to a large extent. since most of the costs that are being discussed are requirements for bringing goods into being, those costs can (and ought to be) simply added in as part of the "cost of goods sold" figure for the business. MEC already does this for: Research and Development, Production ; and Writedowns. these categories cover respectively: digging out and assessing fabrics and others materials/technologies, and developing new products; finding, assessing, and overseeing factories; and reducing the cost on "distressed" items, in caeses where that reduction takes the retail to "below cost". because these costs are then captured "within" the products themselves, no adjustment in margin is necessary to cope with them. the MEC system is not ideal, with the main deficiency being that R&D and Prod'n costs are not attributed to the department (i.e., the section of the product line) in which they are generated, but since there's only 1% of sales at issue, this is an area which could be improved, not a fundamental flaw in management reporting. the rest of my points stand as stated: other costs associated with doing business "direct" in our new "borderless" world are poorly recognized, ignored, and/or underestimated, to the severe detriment of the long-term viability of MEC. and the deepest problem is an seemingly unbreakable pattern of Boards focussing on the margin, when the thing that matters in the retail world is the retail price. it's what you pay that you "see", not how that figure came into being. cheers,