Lambone

Yeah, Here I agree with Matt P and Chuck. I only coil it if its a full-on sling belay, otherwise just pile it up...

Ok, I get your point....sorry. I was just tring to be nice after basicaly slamming on the class they took...came off as condecending. Either way I think you know what I meant...

Ok, well with that logic, maybe all aid routes should be just one long string of fixed pins. Like over in Europe, or on the Tripple Roof pitch of Town Crier That pitch on GD (although not necesarily the main point here) would only require pin placements shoud some of the ancient rusty ones blow, and maybe not even then with the right tools for the job. How about that crazy tipped knifeblade on the third pitch! Woohoo, that's maybe the most precarious looking pin I've ever been on...

Matt, Oh, I'm just having fun with this wasting time...I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying I disagree. My first post did say "Kinda Lame", but as I said, I did not name names, she did that herself. Still, I will stand by that statement. I think peole who nail pins on routes that commonly go clean are way lame. Perhaps I read too far into your post, no intend to offend my friend.

Thats my point dumbass, you just started calling me names...now STFU.

ummm...we'll if you subtract all the ciggerette time it's about dark to dark... I know you think it's funny that I've been on the route four times. But hey, some people run laps on Godzilla, I'd rather do and aid route over and over. Either way it's all in the name of training. GD is good fun all around, and I'd do it again...but probly not next time. Anyway, are you going to give my goddamn KB's back or am I going to have to buy new ones...punk ass bitch

Thats true. I posted this here mostly to give people a heads up, not bitch about BD. I still love their stuff even if it does have to go back...

Too bad there isn't more of a debate going on though. I'd love for someone to disagree with me...

You know what, I'm not out...I'm more heated now than ever. Ehmmic, I'm glad you made it down safe, that is what really matters. Spanker, If you have something intelegent to say, then say it. If you have an argument to make, then make it. Other wise shut the fuck up. Don't come out and insult me just because I am the easy guy to pick on. I put my opinions out there for others to read. Some may agree with them, some may disagree...that's fine. But just calling me names doesn't cut the mustard man...I know you are just watching your friends back, but iInever insulted her. Yes, I think she was in the wrong, but no...I don't think she is some sort of bad person. For once I disagree with the effortlessly cool one, Matt P. I don't think rain vailidates the need to place pitons on a clean route, in Wa, BC, Yosemite or otherwise. You knew it was going to be wet before you started...and relyed on pins as the easy way out. Lets just get something straight here...placing pitons on an A1 route is not some special advanced skill. It is the easy alternative to actual skill...it is beating the rock in submission in replacement for lack of clean gear placement technique. At index or otherwise. Do you use Leave-no-trace method in the wilderness? Building a fire is a skill...if it is raining and you are cold, is that an excuse to build one and leave a scar on the ground? This is the same thing. Sure if your in Alaska..who gives a shit. But your not...your in washington. And I equate nailing pins on GD with building fires in the Enchantments. If everyone did it, others down the road are going to have to live with the consequences. The same goes for many things on a much larger global scale... Why does this bother me so much. Because it's happening all over the place. Aid climbing is trendy, many people can afford racks of pitons, but do not know when it is appropriote to use them. Nailing pitons is what all the "hardcorps" climbers do on the gnarly Captain routes right...so it must be ok... And about Artafice, I've never had any desire to climb it, and don't plan to. I prefer to push my limits with air below me, not 1 pitch off the deck. So, crazy Jamie did it clean, good for him, so what...it is not worth it to me. And if I did get on it and had to nail, i would at least own up to my lack of skills, or balls, and not blame it on the rain.

well said

And one more thing... I knew they were ehmmic's pins before I started this thread, but I didn't acuse her of anything. I wasn't trying to implicate any individual, my argument adressed all climbers who visit any clean aid routes. She volounteered the information herself.

What the hell are you talking about Spanker... I'm not policing anybodies cheastbeating (what ever the hell that means), I'm calling people out for pounding pins on a route that goes clean easily. If you don't have the right gear or skills to climb a well established clean trade route without pounding pins...STAY OFF THE FUCKING ROUTE UNTIL YOU DO. This isn't my law...it is common knowledge in todays aid-climbing scene. Green Drag-on and Town Crier are two beautiful classic routes that are perfct for people practicing their clean aid skills for bigger things in Squamish and Yosemite, two of the best aid routes in Washington. They are not mountaineering routes, they are on a roadside crag, 30 minutes up from the car. And if gumbies go up there with pins in "assault" mode they are just going to fuck it up for everyone. I'm just thinking about sustainability here, preserving our resources for future generations. If you don't think nailing is a big deal, go climb the Shield Headwall and see if you have the same attitude afterward. Hell, didn't you just get back from the Prow??? How would you feel if people were still nailing that route (which they are! were you?)... I'm sorry if my rant seems harsh. But this shit bothers me more than anything. Sure everyone deserves the right to learn and practice, but with that right comesthe responsibility of respecting the character of the route. This responsibility is multiplied exponetialy on popular classic routes! Maybe I'm am being a rock cop...but i'm suprised you arn't. Afterall, I don't even plan on climbing at index after June 15th. It's your crag, do what you wan't with it...I'm out.

You said TEST the next piece with bodyweight...for me this woulkd be a bounce test... Mark, I am going to try it with my Met Adjustables. I have had a hellava time top-stepping with those daisies, can't legthen them when I need to because they are under tension. Hope fully the fifi combo will work better. Anyway, thanks for the info folks, can't wait to try it out.

So I guessed 45 minutes to raise 100ft, and you think 30 minutes to raise 25ft. So by your calculation that would be 2 full hours to raise someone 100 ft.... If I had one rope, I would raise them until I had half the rope, then lower down to them and rappel to the deck from there with them...that would just be my first inclination. I suppose every situation would be different. Still, some training is way better than no training, I give you lots of credit just for going to the class.

Yeah, maybe I had it backwards...

Hmmm... so you bounce test with the fifi...? Interesting, seems like you can do all kinds of different stuff with one of these things. Does the long chord get in your way?

But how often do you really use the fifi up at your full reach?

Jesus...this makes like 4 BD things that I need to send back...bogus. http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/about/news/bionic_recall.html

I have a Tempest and so far I really dig it. It is bigger than the I and Eldorado, so don't get it if you plan on chopping ledges on some crazy route. But for your average mountaineering it's great. I especialy like the round breathable doors and sewn on vestabules. The only think I don't like is that the material doesn't have that perfect drum tight cut of the I-Tent.

I just picked one up at Jim's shop. Not bad for 5 bucks... How long should I cut the chord? How do you keep it from getting caught up in the clusterfuck? Is 6mil the best to use?

Really??? You don't say. So lets think about it... Lets say to have to haul someone 100 feet. With every foot that you haul the climber comes up 1.3 inches. So lets say you can haul 5 feet of rope with each pull. That mekes each pull 6.6 inches of gain. 1,200 inches divided by 6.6 inches = 181.8 pulls. So you have to pull the guy up 181 times, and re-rig the rope each time. And that is asuming you can pull at least 5 feet each time. So back to my original question, how long would that take? My guess is at leats 45 minutes. In other words, forget the 9:1 bullshit if you are by yourself, that's a joke. Oh, and I don't mean to dis on SAR members, cause in my book they rock

Here is a little trick... When you are coiling the rope, start with smal loops and gradually get biger and bigger. Then pass a sling under the coil and clip it into the anchor. The rope should feed off the top without getting stuck, just keep pulling loops out before the climber moves up. Be sure not to miss an alternation while coiling, or that loop will get caught in the sling and the whole system will be shot.

yeah dood, I didn't ask for a FREE room. It kinda sucks having to move a month before graduating...escpecialy without my girl, but thats life. I just though it would be more fun staying with some climbers.

Glen is one of those nerdy acedemic types, so his job opportunities don't necesarily entail a big city. Which is why he should move to Ashland

NO! Don't do it! I hear Ashland Oregon is a good spot, you should move there