To continue to beat said deceased horse: For beginners, I usually recommend a slightly stiffer shoe, like a board-lasted model. Mythos are great shoes but get pretty floppy fast, and if you don't have the foot strength, won't do you as much good as a stiffer pair will - Especially f you want your shoes to be all-around for now (you can buy a quiver-full of specialty shoes later) i'd say get one of hte slightly boxy models with good, high rands that will take some beatign from toe-dragging and crack-bashing, like some of the 'all-around' models mentioned above. Most importantly, as previously mentioned - fit them to your feet - Sportivas tend to run narrow - that's why I like them, and Boreals/5.10s tend to be wider. I haven't tried any of the other brands. And, yeah, you don't need to hammer your toes to death - I can fit my Miuras down so I can dime-edge at Smiff, but a buddy has a looser fit pair that he can do all-day routes in. Same shoe, different sizng concept. So now that you are thoroughly confused, what was the question again?