W

Rodchester, while it may not "define" nation building per se, I think what Tom is referring to in the case of Iraq is that the CIA was funding and arming Saddam throughout the time of the Iran-Iraq war when Iran-US antagonism was at its peak(read:giving a man who less than a few years later we referred to as an "evildoer" lots of money and weapons so he could mustard-gas the Iranians). And like the above comment suggests, I believe that we also at one point not long ago were sending money to the Taliban. I'm glad to see the Taliban go and am all for the dismantling of terrorist organizations however it happens. under the circumstances we are faced with potentially damning prospects regardless of what we do. However, I think Tom has some valid gripes with our government. Many of the very same people who on domestic issues assert that our government is not to be trusted for anything recoil at the suggestion that our foreign policy is or ever has been misguided and self-serving. Is this so audacious a suggestion? All of a sudden if one questions the government policy one is "un-American" and a traitor. I think real security and peace in the days ahead will come only through being more aware and cognicent of the motives and actions of our government in its dealings with the rest of the world. The government is what we make it. If we as a nation are as righteous as many assert, then our actions will serve the interests of all, not just what is beneficial to us- which includes setting up puppet governments sympathetic to our economic and military interests and then looking the other way while they slaughter their own people, all the while we are supposed to represent freedom and justice and human rights. We can win this war while at the same time demanding something better and more noble of our leaders. [ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: W ]

The approach took us five hours. We did the Direct route, which took us about 16 hours camp to camp (camp being at the standard col before you drop off into the north side cirque...). We counted 22 pitches, 17 of which were 5th class. The lower route has some loose rock, especially at the belay atop the pitch rated "5.9+", which felt harder than that. Two belays in fact were less than inspiring, but adequate. Unlike many alpine climbs, many of the harder pitches seemed quite sustained instead of one or two moves of 5.9 or 10 sandwiched around 150 feet of 5.6, and bear in mind that after 15 or 20 pitches, the 5.9's start feeling pretty stiff. You might want to bring a #3.5 or #4 camalot, there are some wider cracks as I remember. A #3 at least is needed. If you overlap the topos in Beckey's guide, there is at least one pitch missing on the Direct topo. The offwidth high on the route is easy to bypass by stepping out right after 10 feet, and it's likely you will want to by that time. Also, when we reached the Beckey penji points at pitch 20, the "5.9" pitch on the crest listed in Nelson's book was a runout slab climb and maybe sandbagged a bit. Being fatigued, the penjies to the 4th class gully are an easy out. That's what we did of course. Finally, the "3rd and 4th class" section involved climbing through a cascading waterfall from runoff from a melting snowpatch on the huge ledge above it. There also was virtually no protection here and the water made things quite serious. That was in August. I'd recommend going late for this route for this reason. Enjoy. I think this is, all things considered, the best route I've done in the N. Cascades.

The best reports are always from places like Lake Mead, AZ- drunken redneck boaters crashing into each other and getting in fist fights, the meth and crank busts at Lake Powell, and then there's Great Smoky- drunken redneck mountain men terrorizing visitors.

The normal ramp through the Carbon looks dicey but I bet it will go- it might take some persistance and creativity. I once had to climb down into one jumbled crevasse and climb out the other side in there. But I have to say, its been a long time since the lower ridge looked that rocky in early May. In fact I can't believe how much exposed rock there is right now in general, especially compared to 1999 (the big snow year). If it's warm the lower ridge is, and will be this year particularly, a rockfall hell. Be careful.If you do make it onto the ridge I wouldn't be surprised to find a whole lot of exposed ice on the upper ridge. By the way, that's a really great picture Phil.

*Eve Dearborn Memorial *Triple Couloirs *NE 54th St. from 20th Ave. NE to Ravenna Blvd.

When you break out of the woods near the south end of Colchuck Lake, into big talus, aim uphill towards Colchuck Peak; when you gain the terminal moraine, follow it's crest until you are right across the snow gully from Backbone. Staying on the crest of the moraine is out of the way of most rockfall. Personally, in four trips up routes on the north face I've never had any rockfall incidents. But yes, stories abound. Party inflicted rockfall is especially common. [This message has been edited by W (edited 05-15-2001).]

Matt- That sounds like the Colchuck Glacier- but, and maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, if you are advocating camping right at the foot of the route or on the moraine at the foot of the glacier- this is a REALLY BAD idea. More than one person I know has nearly been creamed by rockfall off Dragontail, while on or near the base and the moraine area, including Gary Brill. In fact, check out Jim Nelson's description and warnings about rockfall from the face. Rockfall will especially be a concern in June with melting snow. If bivying at all, the logical bivi is Colchuck Lake, and both the Aasgard or Colchuck Glacier descents take you through the site on your way back so there is no backtracking or climbing to retrieve gear regardless. However, with a light alpine pack and no bivi gear, the lake is only about 1.5 hours give or take from the car- so with the attendant permit hassles it's just as well to not bother bivying anyway.

I've haven't done the Booker/Buckner col thing. But to get from Horseshoe Basin to Sahale Arm: stay high in the basin, aiming for a short buttress arm coming down from high on Sahale Peak. In early season if it is really snowed up, it would probably be possible to skirt the base of this buttress and climb the broad depression behind it, up steep ground, and right onto Sahale Arm. Most of the summer however, this depression is steep rock slabs with running water and possibly calving snow chunks. We were able to climb a short snow couloir on the front of the short buttress to gain the buttress's crest, then climb the buttress via some loose and devious 4th class with some attention getting exposure (we were unroped), which soon leads to easy ground. Where the buttress steepens dramatically you can traverse out left onto the top of the aforementioned depression, above all the b.s., and continue right across onto Sahale Arm.

F- It's about 8 pitches of 5.6-5.9 and a lot of running belayed 3rd/4th. The offwidth is nothing to worry about- it's a grunt, yes, but the first part takes #3 to #4 camalots. You'll want a #5 for the middle section, and you can walk it along with you. Higher up the pitch there is other sized (#1 camalot, etc.) gear available on the wall to the left if I remember correctly. The offwidth is a straight in crack in a deep right facing corner. Don't bother bivying- why carry all that gear? the climb is long but not that hard to do in a day. If you are determined to bivi- it would be possible in several spots below the Fin. But not sure I'd want to bivi in the middle of a rockfall prone face. The Fin is an amazing feature. Expect some routefinding here; there are several options, all of them in the 5.8-9 range. We took a good crack system on the left, then a long exposed crack/ramp across to the right and then up to finish in the chossy third triple couloir. If Aasgard is snowed up you'll want an axe- it is steep and long with bad runouts. And the snow there seems to always be hard. Also, getting onto Backbone requires crossing a steep snow gully, and the initial descent from the summit is steep although for a only 300 feet. We went in September w/o crampons or axes- what a mistake! The gully getting on the climb was hard snow with rocks below, and the descent off the summit was steep gray ice, also with big rocks 300 feet below. A sharp rock in one hand and nut tool in the other provided a nervewracking but feasible solution to get down, but an axe and crampons would have been worth carrying at that time. In June the snow might be softer but use your own judgement and go prepared as you see fit. This was just my experience. Have fun, it is a nice route.

yes. Piss on the USFS and this "demo" project. They are using deception to get their expenses paid for by climbers and wilderness users. If you get a court date, I understand that you can blow off the court appearance as well, for the judge will see that the ticket is unenforceable and your appearance is NOT required. I think.

I'll give you something a little more productive: The ice cliff itself presents a serious rock and icefall hazard, but early in the season it is a little safer. Large crevasses split the glacier by mid June, maybe earlier. I haven't done this route proper, but climbed over the north ridge and downclimbed a steep snow couloir to gain the upper ice cliff glacier enroute to girth pillar. 2 things are worth mentioning: this was in mid June, and the slabs next to the great gendarme on the north ridge were holding a lot of winter snow and ice, which began falling regularly as soon as the sun hit it. The upper cirque of the glacier is very dangerous as a result. Also, the bergschrund was huge and, at that time, unpassable below the couloir. It was 30 feet across and presented about a 35 foot overhanging wall of snow-ice. We had to climb onto the rock about 200 feet right, into a difficult, 3 pitch corner system. This led us eventually to the normal ramp and put us back on route; however, for the ice cliff glacier route, I think you would have to rappel down this chossy, shattered ramp to regain the main ice cliff couloir by this time,and probably would lose some gear. Go as early as you can to avoid this schrund problem.

Actually, you can even go the old old school route and just use two clove hitches and dispense with the mechanical devices altogether...costs you nothing. there's also, for the grigri, the method of drilling a small hole through it near the p in "Petzl" (don't hold me to that, I can't remember right off) and then attaching a tie-off (I think this may be what Erik is talking about) and clipping the tie off to your chest harness to keep the gri gri upright; again, though, more than one person in the know says that is not recommended as it increases the likelihood of the rope not catching while upside down. However, if you are backtied like you should be, it helps the rope feed itself with less manual intervention, and you don't need to worry about going to the deck.

I did a lot of research on solo aid devices awhile back, and determined that the grigri I already owned was essentially the same device as the solo aid or soloist. Certainly the Silent Partner is smoother but it costs way too much. I talked to Wren Industries and they highly recommend backtying with the soloist and solo aid, and the soloist (I think that's the cheaper one) won't catch an upside down fall. With both I think you have to hand feed it. I also did some research on the web; Nate Beckwith suggests, for a Grigri, to let it hang from your belay biner w/o using a chest harness if you are aiding; it will definitely need to be hand-fed but is more likely to catch an upside down fall also. Still, you need to backtie. But I feel really comfortable solo-aiding with this system and it isn't a pain in the ass once you get it dialed. Beckwith also only suggests modifying the grigri (sawing off the flap and filing it down) if you intend to solo-free with it, and in this case you would also run it through a chest harness. Again, though- dangerous for aid climbing cause the rope will feed all too well in an upside down fall. So if you have a grigri already I think you'd be wasting your money on the soloist or solo-aid. The Silent Partner sounds like the best overall device for either aid or free but screw that $225 pricetag.

now now. let's not start any mountaineers jokes. i was thinking about a two for one sale. did anyone get angela's number?

oh no, nothing personal taken. I'm just trying to get a read. but thanks. i'm irritable today. it's only tuesday and i'm also a short timer at work. chongo? hell. I've got something for you, caveman. I bought a whole case of Team Harsh Realm T-shirts, and i'll drop em on your head.

Caveman, So you tell me to "get lost", then half an hour later you start shit talking me some more. Nice touch. I was happy to drop it, to tell you the truth. My posts weren't meant to attack Erik personally and had even less to do with you. So what's with the vitriol?

Doxey- The gully is 30-40 degrees. At that time of year a good strategy, if you are concerned about the snow, would be to camp in the trees atop the waterfall in the basin below Redoubt, then climb the gully early in the AM. It doesn't get sun until mid morning and should only take you 1-2 hours to climb. And hey, don't be so hard on yourself- erring on the side of caution, especially with avalanches, will make an old climber out of you someday.

Did I call him a thief? I was trying to make a point about "found" gear is all. So what is your point? Erik doesn't forget things anymore, and Captain Caveman has money so he doesn't need to steal (meaning otherwise you would?). Reality is that forgotten gear is usually a goner, but I'm only suggesting that it needn't be so cut and dried if you happen to be the finder. Don't take it so personally. And speaking of personally, Erik, what's the symphony comment supposed to mean? I assume you looked at my profile which lists my "home" as Issaquah. That is a partial truth. So if that was meant to separate you and me as the rich stuffy guy from the eastside vs. the homey from Tacoma who's walked the hard mile, put a lid on it until you know what you are talking about, BRO. Of course, you might be half kidding, but since I got two "rolling eyes" faces from you two, and a "whatever dude" I assume otherwise.

i don't know, caveman, his point seems pretty clear. So if you find someone's wallet on the ground, do you say "OH BOY! BOOTY!"...or do you do the right thing and try to get it back to the owner? Deliberately leaving something behind is one thing. But we've all forgotten stuff, so have some compassion.

vt- All fixed anchors are bomber. The first pitch is a bolt protected clip up now (see the concord tower thread...). At the base, you can look up and see two sets of anchors if I recall. The bolt protected route goes to the left one, which is about 10 feet left of the other anchor. Right at the top it gets on to 5.9/10a for a move or two. The other way is pretty runout I hear (groundfalls have occurred). The A3 on the next pitch isn't A3 at all. Maybe C2. About 10 feet of thin stuff- offsets, cam hooks. I had to place one pin on p3, and just below the anchor area are some loose blocks. P5 is the crux...most of it is pretty easy aid but the second roof requires a #2 or #3 sawed off if I remember, in a very shallow flared hole. The mantle isn't too bad. P6 is mostly free, near the top particularly is some crappy loose rock and bad protection, but not harder than 5.8. by the way, M+M ledge is not the greatest bivi spot, it is slopy and the level areas are small. And the "possible bivi for two" on Nelson's topo is possible if you don't mind sitting upright with your feet over the edge.

hey dude, this doesn't really help probably, but I left the parking lot yesterday around 5 PM and I saw your rope sitting on a rock where the path out of the parking lot heads up to the railroad tracks. I figured whoever's rope it was was around someplace. Hope your bro gets it back.

Hi, I've done the Silver Lake Glacier route and approached it by Depot Creek, in 1999, so here's some beta: First of all, Beckey's guide says the Depot Creek road is reached 30 miles along the Chilliwack Lake Road. No. It is like 33 miles. My low clearance car was then only able to get about 3/4 mile up the road before it is badly washed out. If you have a high clearance vehicle you can make it maybe another mile. Like the description says, hike the road and then take the first left fork in it (which is about where you could drive with a high clearance vehicle). However, it doesn't mention another fork which is reached in about 1/2 mile more. Do NOT take the right fork like we did, following what we thought was "intuition" as it stays in the valley bottom. the resulting bushwhacking/stinging nettle/waist deep water/muck/bug infested/swamp wading ass-kicking epic that ensued is something that should never be repeated by anyone in the history of climbing, but I'm sure it will again. Anyway, take the left fork, which heads 90 degrees left, straight up the hill, then soon reaches a T intersection and old road grade. Turn right and you are on route. In about a mile the road becomes a trail and you leave the logging slash and enter the United States at an obelisk monument. The next 3 miles of trail are a bit vague in places and with lots of downed windfall, but followable, just pay attention. The waterfall at the end of the canyon is unforgettable! We were there in July of that record snow season, and crossing the base of it was difficult and intimidating, requiring some scrambling over soaking wet rocks, with some exposure, with the base of the falls rampaging right in front of you! There is a fixed line or two. exit left into the brush and talus as soon as you can. just before the waterfall be sure to follow the ribbons in the brush to find the best way through. The rest of the approach is straightforward. The col north of Spickard is a spectacular bivi with tremendous views. The glacier is easy climbing but be wary of soft snow avalanches on warm days. The rock scrambling at the top is nothing to worry about. take a short, 9 mm rope and a couple small to medium pieces of gear. We hit the summit ridge (east ridge) about 400 feet shy of the top (after a tricky bergschrund crossing at the top of the glacier- the snow was deep mushy and awful). The climbing on the ridgecrest was on often very loose and shattered tiles of rock and rather exposed, but with protectable cracks available, all of which combined justified roping up, but the climbing is easy- 4th class at the hardest. It can be downclimbed and running belayed without a problem. the views again are as good as they get. Have a great trip.

Ah, but you BOYS are obviously not aware that we have already mounted high-tech surveillance equipment at various points on the mountain, which serves two purposes: to film our ascent for everyone to see (of course, duh) and, to monitor TGM. So, while you are looking for our stealth snowcave in vain, we will be watching YOU. That's right. You'll never know when or where, but we are WATCHING! Bwoaahh hahahhahahaahha.

yeah, and just look at me now.

Yo Aidan, The Emmons is less crowded than the Muir and a good choice. If you have good glacier routefinding skills, the Tahoma Glacier is only a little steeper than the Emmons (in one place) and you'll be lucky if you see anyone on it. The approach is long and has more elevation gain, but this side of the mountain is really scenic. Liberty is a great route however, not a good first choice to discover your high altitude climbing capabilities- as you say, retreating the ridge especially if ill could be risky. Good luck.