mattp

Yeah, and we came back all pumped about how we'd made the "second ascent." But maybe it was the third, so maybe we weren't so cool after all ... If you are interested, here's our cheastbeat: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000255 [ 11-07-2002, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: mattp ]

Doug - I know there has been some controversy over this one -- and some personal attacks -- and I don't blame you for being defensive. But hey: it is a FANTASTIC route and I for one thought your article in the AAJ was WAY COOL. First ascent or not, "don't let the bastards grind you down." [ 11-07-2002, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: mattp ]

Yo Clyde: I was talking to Garth the other night and he indicated that the Center has not been fully funded for this season yet. He didn't say whether or not there was any doubt that they could keep the forecasts updated this season, but he said they were only "partially funded for the year." What's up? If we don't show up, are you guys goint to be in a bad way? It almost sounds as if it might be irresponsible not to show.

Beck: I'm with DPS on this. My McHale is WAY more comfortable than any Gregory/Dana/Arcterix/Karrimor/LaFuma/... I have ever carried. Those funky retro-pads work! And without the stiffeners and foam, they don't get in the way when loading the pack into a car trunk or hauling it up a cliff. I have never missed the "load lifters." Not once. There may be a varietiy of complaints about a McHale, but I don't think that an inadequate suspension system is one of them.

Nice post, Mike. You remind me of a trip to Alaska about four years ago where I allowed my partner to talk me into trying a climb that was well over my head, and I knew it. I told him so before we even left Seattle, but he was bent on this particular objective and kept saying it'd be great and lets just try it and ... Kurt Gloyer deposited us at our basecamp not more than six hours after we left Seattle. I immediately broke out the scotch and a cigar, and as I admired a very fine sunset with a drink in hand I said to myself: this is one very cool place; maybe this trip is going to work out after all. But three days into our climb I knew it: I didn't belong on that one. We had climbed onto and started up a ridge that nobody had ever reached before, and not because nobody had tried. Indeed, the great Jim Wickwire himself had attempted the route but failed to even find a way to truly get started on it. And there we were -- a quarter of the way up the ridge and in position to grapple with the real meat of the climb. The weather was OK -- not great, but OK. But I was done. I told Bill of the growing sense of gloom in my gut, and I asked him what he thought. We talked long into the night and in the end I concluded that it boiled down to one truth: I had never climbed anything even half as serious as the route which lay before us, and while my partner was ready for what might lie ahead, I was not. All it would take is to lose a tool or two, to get nailed by a big snowstorm, or even just for Bill to have a bad day and I'd be stretched so thin that I didn't see how I'd be able to pull it off. Already three thousand feet up from camp, with some interesting mixed climbing and the steepest snow-climbing I'd ever seen in my life below us, we were looking at over four thousand feet more along a steep ridge, very technical and beset with double cornices and a thousand foot rotten rock tower all decked out with snow and ice, and there would be no easy retreat -- indeed down climbing would be about as difficult as climbing up. We expected it would take us at least three days to reach the summit, and perhaps three more to descend the far side of the mountain, traverse 22 miles of glacier and climb back over a 3,000 foot ridge to reach basecamp. We had about five days' food and fuel left. And, more than anything else, we were alone. I could almost picture doing the actual climbing, but it was the sheer size of what lay before us, in mental terms as much as physical, that I was not prepared for. I looked up and all I could see was death, death, death. Bill was gracious about it. We went down, to spent thirteen days in the tent, while stormy weather and poor visibility prevented the pilot's return. Not once did Bill complain that I had let him down and we remain good friends to this day -- perhaps even better friends than we were before. What would have happened if we had continued? I don't know. But I was glad to be in that tent, reading, and I enjoyed what was left of the scotch and the cigars while we cooked biscuits and ate our way through the massive pile of good food that we had left at camp. I have thought back on it many times, and in this case I think I made the right call. Had he really tried, Bill might have talked me into going on. But he knew as much as I did that a climb like that requires stamina, confidence, and full concentration -- full heart. It is always difficult to know whether the gnawing doubt that preceds every big climb is simply case of the pre-climb jitters that go with setting out on any large climbing objective and can be safely ignored, or whether it is more than that: an insite about the true insanity of what we are about to do or about our lack of preparedness for this particular outing. But think about this: deciding to come back another day will never result in your getting killed; ignoring the doubts (or are they warning signs?) -- and pushing ahead -- may. Good luck in 2003. But don't let a sense that you should have done something in 2002 drive your decisions in 2003. Climb with your head as well as your arms and legs. Listen to your heart. [ 11-07-2002, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: mattp ]

Josh - It is not just the fact that file sizes are limited that causes your pictures to look grainy. Look at other pictures in the album, and you will notice than many are sharper than yours. You might try experimenting with different settings in whatever program you use to reduce the the file sizes to fit the website requirements.

The reverso is a good tool, but I should note that I almost exclusively use double ropes and I do just fine with an ATC and I actually find it a little easier to use - though the reverso is clearly much better for belaying two seconds. If using the meunter, I'd be inclined to go with the twin knows in light of Lammy's comment, but I haven't tried it.

Like Lambone said: Thanks, Pindude. There is always hope that we can take a reasoned approach to this matter and that those on both or all sides of any debate about bolting at Banks Lake can participate, even if indirectly, in any such discussion. Are there bolts that should not have been placed or which should be removed? Perhaps. But lets get all the facts.

I haven't thought much about the relative safety of whether to use one or two biners, but I once climbed with a German climbing partner who INSISTED that the ONLY proper way to belay ANYTHING was to use two 8.8 or 9mm ropes as one (twin rope technique) and to belay with a single meunter hitch (with both strands in the same knot). When we had to deviate from the perfect system and clip the lead ropes separately (double rope technique), the belayer could slip one rope past the other in the meunter knot but it certainly wasn't easy. Maybe you should check the German Alpine Club website (they must have one) and see if it has their latest recommendation.

So the answer to your question is: yes. You must first place your image online. You can put it on your web page or someone else's, or you can put it on cc.com's page by placing it in the photo album.

It sounds like you are being responsible and that you will likely do a tidy job. Consider Glacier's input however. If you decide that it is in fact strong as it is, Tidiest of all might be to cut off the rest of the stud (which would only be necessary if it is below a part of the route so somebody might actually fall onto it) and file it so you don't leave a jagged bolt-end. Remember, on these slab climbs, there is no way anybody is going to exert a large "pull out" force. Even at a belay, where a climber may clip in and stand so they pull outward on the bolt, Charles Atlas couldn't pull with more than a thousand pounds of force. The real loads are all in sheer forces. And I bet the deapth is not much of a factor once a 3/8" bolt is 2" deep. Just a thought. You were there, and you have obviously thought about it.

With several hundred feet of slab below, "dear ChucK" was just a little concerned about that next step. Do you blame him?

I would not recommend pulling the bolt unless you are prepared to re-drill a wider hole and reinstall a fatter bolt. I havn't actually tried to pull a 10mm stud (did you say they were studs?) and reinstall a bolt in the same hole, but I'd think that you might damage the hole in the removal process and unless you were going to widen the hole and use a bigger bolt, you might well only weaken the placement. Does anybody else have thoughts on this?

quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: And if it good to go any places to avoid this time of year? It was pretty good to go, but there were some places to be avoided.

Where do I sign up for your next adventure?

quote: Originally posted by Toast: How about this as a query: Name a few good in-city cracks to practice on Most "cracks" you find in the city, formed concrete seams or gaps between two separate concrete structures, are straight and parallel sided and do not really replicate real cracks. You will find some big-stone rock walls with more irregular "cracks," but these don't really replicate real cracks, either. You really gotta go to Index, or further afield, to find real cracks to practice putting gear into. For climbing practice, there are a few cracks at the UW rock, Stone Gardens has one (doesn't it?) and there are plenty of buildering problems scattered about town.

I think the McHale pack that I currently carry is by far the most comfortable pack I have ever carried, and I don't know why Beck would say the harness systems are "manky." The harness system on my pack is indeed much simpler than just about any other pack made, with no load stabilizers from the top of the shoulders, no adjustment toggles for the height that the shoulder straps take off from the pack bag, and no plastic stiffeners or aerodynamic form-fitted foam. It looks crude next to something made by Arcteryx or Dana Designs, but it is very effective at transferring the weight where I want it (to my hips, most of the time) without causing bed sores. And it is also very stable for skiing. For lighter loads I have other packs, but any time I am carrying camping gear and a rack, or even if it is just a large pile of hardware, I take the McHale. And with those kinds of loads, I am not concerned that my pack (empty) weighs two pounds more than the one my partner has (I didn't get one with the lighter fabric). On these kind of trips, I am concerned with comfort and I like the fact that it is tough as nails. The price is an issue, however. Is it worth 2x or 3x as much as another pack? I don't know. If you're looking at other brands, I'd consider the Lafuma and Millet, as recommended by Jens, because they tend to have less crap all over them than most brands on the market here. Skip the crampon patch, funny straps, and snow shovel slot.

I agree with the suggestions made above that climbers who are moving from the gym into "trad" climbing should be encouraged to learn to lead on easy climbs but I disagree with SayJay's suggestion that this should be a focal issue in trying to encourage climbers to make that transition safely. I say this for two reasons. First, from what I've seen of beginning leaders, they rarely if ever fall when faced with a difficult move that is near their limit but much more often fall when they pull off a loose rock or slip on a grassy ledge or otherwise fall when they were not expecting to. Yes, there are those who are willing to throw theirselves at hard climbing before they know how to protect it properly, but most new leaders will back down before they reach anything near their technical ability. Second, I think there are all kinds of skills needed to lead a trad climb safely, and these include learning to place gear but they also include a lot more than that. Routefinding and being able to assess where in the terrain ahead they will be able to stop and place pro or set a belay, anticipating rope drag and compensating for it, setting up a retreat, rapelling where there may be loose rocks or flakes ready to snag the rope when you pull it... Coming from the gym, trad climbing is a whole new sport and I think Forrest stated this quite well. Hone your gear placement skills on easy climbs -- or even on the ground -- but I think you will learn a lot more about gear placement by doing as Kurt suggested and climbing A-1 cracks. Most of that other stuff that you have to learn in order to be a competent trad leader can only be learned by doing lots of climbing, on climbs that are generally more complex and demanding than most of the 5.2's that I can think of. And sorry, safety folks, but I disagree with the idea that climbing skills can always be learned in a safe setting or that we can improve incrementally without sometimes throwing ourselves at something that may be over our head. I'm probably arguing this point only because I misunderstood what was said, however. Just ask Mitch.

quote: Originally posted by Fairweather: "If you torture the data long enough, it will tell you what you want to hear." That is true, but you didn't raise this argument last week, when GregW stated that crime increased when they banned guns in Australia and in England.

quote: Originally posted by Beck: every little feature you want, any option you want, and nothing you don't Have you ever bought a pack from Dan McHale? To say the least, he has very strong ideas about what is right for one of his packs. I am a big fan of his stuff, but if you think you can walk in there and ask for features that he doesn't approve of, you have the wrong shop.

quote: Originally posted by Dustin B: Wow, I figured that out on a Friday afternoon Except you may have figured wrong. Consider this: if there were so much friction that the rope wouldn't pull through, it would be just like the climber was hanging from a single strand hung on the anchor. If this is correct, then wouldn't some lesser amount of friction maybe tend to reduce rather than aggravate the doubling factor?

Those are relatively hard climbs. Most climbers go to Darrington for moderate outings, because it has been known for good, low angle, moderate climbing. However, I think David's book will allow more climbers to find out that there is in fact good climbing that is in places steep and that there are some pretty hard climbs in addition to the long slab climbs the area is known for.

It sucks. I'm not going there on Sunday.

DTown is a terrible place and you should by no means go there this weekend. It'll be running with water and crawling with snipers and the whole damn place should be avoided at all costs. Right David?

quote: Originally opined by Dustin B, glacier, and others ...I think in general it is 'safer' to rap in the case of a bad anchor. The forces on an anchor are much less when rapping than loweringI always prefer to rappel because I have a greater sense of control. But if you are comparing rapelling to lowering off an anchor and having intermediate anchors in place below the suspect (top) anchor, it is clearly safer to lower off if you have any significant faith in those intermediates and in your belayer. In this case, that is why Anna didn't deck - she was caught by the intermediate one - and in the hypothetical "average" situation, the greater force on the anchor (300 vs 150 pounds) probably isn't going to make much difference though perhaps the additional vibration introduced by lowering could be a factor in causing failure in rare instances.