mattp

You might also check to see if they have some used ones for sale at Second Bounce (a seattle used-gear store), or show up at a pubclub on a tuesday night and see what you can borrow. If your friends are able to spring some $ for a pitcher or three, they might ingratiate theirselves with somebody like myself who has an extra axe at home.

Thanks, Dave. If I am at pubclub tomorrow night, you can hand off the sign then though last time I posted it when I got there to set up for the event. Lets hope it is nice on Thursday -- we were robbed of our great Mt. Rainier view last time.

I have used a "handline" lots of times when climbing with groups of varying ability. The more compfident climber sets the rope and the others simply hang onto it or they may use a harness and clip theirselves into it using a short runner and locking 'biner (or two) as if it were a via ferrata. (Don't start that fall factor and dynamic vs static stuff, you guys -- hand lines are usually used in places that may be exposed or loose but are barely technical and hence not steep enough to generate large fall forces.) In this application, the handline may be tied to rock-climbing anchors, buried ice axes (deadman style) or rocks or trees, and should be securely anchored at both ends, and perhaps in the middle or at multiple intermediate points. At intermediate anchors, the handline should be tied directly to the anchor or to a carabiner clipped to a sling leading to the anchor (a locking biner or pair of biners reverssed is preferrable here). Use a figure eight or (perhaps better) a butterfly knot -- rather than simply running the rope through a 'biner -- so each segment of the handline is a separate and isolated segment -- and do not "loop it through a sling like a rope." (Of course, you should generally not loop a rope through a sling, either.) Another place where I've used hand lines is in crossing rivers. In this application you definitely DO NOT clip anybody to it because a person held by a rope will be dragged under if they lose their footing in the middle of rapid stream. I know that "light is right" is the style these days, but if you are going to hang onto a rope, I bet most people will prefer to hang onto a 10 or 11 mm piece of cord than an 8 mm one. Dependng on what you are doing, who is going to be hanging on to it, and how many people are in your group, the extra weight may well be worth it and a retired lead rope, or half of one, will probably work just fine. In canyons, a haul-line/rappel rope comes in very handy and if you are going to go of-trail hiking in Canyonlands or some place like that, I probably would take the 30m piece of 8mm cord Catbird suggests.

Dave- I respect your willingness to stick with it here and, depite your defensiveness, it is obvious to me that you have thought about these issues and are trying to do a good job. It sounds to me, too, as if you may realize that you have "overbolted" some climbs or "overdeveloped" some crags compared to what might be some ill-defined mid-point along the spectrum of what different members of the "climbing community" think is acceptable. If that is so, remove some unnecessary bolts or perhaps even an unsightly route or two and patch the holes before you start on your next project. Maintaining good relationships with and between climbers of varying interests and abilities is just as important as maintaining good relationships with the land managers. Thumbs up for sticking with it.

Tricky, it sounds to me as if, after you traverssed from the belay, you found the fingercrack that the Traveller's guide notes has not been freed (as far as I know). It goes over a bulge that is perhaps ten feet high, and maybe 20 feet above the belay. Flared tips. There used to be a knob conveniently located so as to allow one to pull over the bulge without having to climb the crack, but it broke off after one or two ascents. Way to stick with it! Most parties fail on their first attempt to climb Dreamer, even if they don't get off route.

Not only that, but you made the right call. Whatever you might put in the foot of your bivvy sack can just as easily spend the night in a garbage bag outside.

For no good reason other than to stir up ill will between Tacoma and Seattle, I will note that the Tacoma folks were pretty damn quick to blow their wad. I left at 10:30, so who am I to talk, but by that time all the Tacoma folks had come and gone. Dwayner was there less than an hour; and Erik, Jonathan, and Sjy-whatever-his-name-is had already left, Figger Nine had left, Roger had made his guest appearance, and the only Tacoma denizen still gracing our presence was Fast Eddie. Eddie's cool, but what's up with the rest of those Tacoma folks??????? In Seattle, we stay out 'till at least 10:45.

You are right, RB, that "medical experts" on either side of most any litigation are not hired to be impartial. One might argue that our legal system, based on adversarial presentations by two opposing sides, prosecutor vs. defense, or plaintiff vs defendant, is messed up. However, we're not talking about litigation here. We're talking about a simple contract. You pay an insurance company - in advance - so that they'll pay your medical bills when you get injured in a car accident. As soon as you file your claim, they throw at you a whole staff of people all trained to cheat you -- and if you want to have your medical treatment paid for (as they promised to do) you HAVE to hire an attorney. Question: how many people posting to this thread or people that you know have set out to defraud an insurance company by filing false or exaggerated claims? How many have had their legitimate claims chipped away at or downright denied because they didn't, as Erik put it, "have their ducks in a row?" How many have had their rates jacked up, or their policies cancelled, after filing claims which resulted from accidents which were not their fault? (This latter practice is against the law in Washington, by the way, but they do it all the time.) Oh yes. I don't practice as a plaintiff's attorney, but I think Glasgow has probably identified the worst offenders in this arena when he names Allstate and Farmers. They DO suck.

You tell 'em Glasgow. It is bad enough that they have bogus IME's whose job it is to find minimal injuries and recommend less medical treatment, but it is completely criminal that they suspend payment for treatment while waiting for their paid liar to to that job.

More than one party has opted for one of these strategies, and found theirselves out for an extra night. One pair I used to know found the climb more serious than they had expected, and they didn't even make it back on day three! Don't underestimate Mt. Stu.

Michelle, I didn't mean to suggest that it would be of no interest to the general public, only that I would expect most to be unable to understand the issue and the earlier statement that it might appear "arcane" is merely commenting on what would be expected. Wouldn't we think the same thing about the latest controversy between the bird watchers who get together at a conference to yet again argue about whether the same species or sub-species of warblers should be split into two species or sub-species? I think it's OK to see the issue in print as long as it isn't portrayed to be some kind of out-of-control conflict waged by a bunch of lunatics. In this thread and the other thread I saw what looked to me like there may have been some armchair speculation and uninformed condemnation of what somebody else did 1,000 miles away, based on some unknown third person's suggesting that something MAY have been overbolted or retrobolted.

Catbird - I think most climbers on this board probably agree that bolts do not belong within a foot of a nut placement that a three-day novice could safely utilize. Did you know this was what he had done?

What I saw in the article was that Mr. Seurynks put up a bolted climb, and Mr. Thesanga chopped it. Seurynks was mad about it, and Thesanga said he had chopped bolts that were blatantly unnecessary. Like the other thread on this topic today, I wonder if anybody has any real information here? Did Seurynks put bolts next to cracks? If he did, were they belay bolts or pro bolts? What is this 400 foot dangerous cliff like? What is the history of the place?

I'm curious what we are talking about here. Is this Flag place in a post industrial wasteland like Exit 38 or is it in some beautiful mountain valley where the deer and the antelope play? It sounds like even Dave Tvedt agrees that there has been some over-bolting there, but how extensive is it? Is the Flag a new climbing area or one that has had a history of ground-up ascents protected only by gear? Is he correct when he says that the initial speculation about Hydrotube being retrobolted was just plain wrong? Are the offensively over-bolted beginner's routes confined to one small crag that is out of the way? I'm not impressed with his debate style where he says "if you pull my bolts I'm going to go back and install glue-in's all over the place," but what has really happened at Flag?

A large flake may have damaged or chopped some bolts on the first two pitches of Dark Rhythm but I looked at it from a distance and couldn't tell.

It is pretty much a climber's issue, isn't it? Some land managers may care about it too, because recreational management and environmental management may be a part of their job. Would you expect a broader segment of the American public to understand or care? It's not as if what we do on some "dangerous 400 foot cliff near Aspen, Colorado" matters to most people. A similar article (not as well written) appeared in the Seattle papers a few years back.

I don't know what to tell you, JayB. Meanwhile, head out there with whatever guidebook you have - Smoot or Traveller's or Nelson or downloads from my web page - and be prepared for reality to differ slightly from what you see depicted there (my drawings are pretty up-to date, though).

Erik's got a good list of climbs, though they are mostly 5.10. In that range, you might take a look at Slesse, as well. For something easier, and JUST PLAIN FUN, I'd take a look at Goode's NE Buttress. If you are the multipitch 5.10 trad/sport leader who solo's up to 5.7, you'll probably solo up and down it but it's still fun. I disagree with Tod about the lower half of the N. Ridge of Stuart. I thought the climbing on the lower part was fine but not great, and I'd do just the upper half of the route if I went back to repeat it. By the way, I don't think you'll find many people around here who would say that the N. Face of the N. Peak of Mt. Index is a classic alpine rock climb, but I would say that the traverse of all three peaks of Mount Index, usually done N to S, is a worthy summer outing.

I agree pretty much with TimL though I think many people will want two pieces in the #3.5 to 4.5 camelot range (a pair of 4's would be just fine). They are not needed, though -- I led both the wide pitches with only one and anybody who has climbed with me will tell you that I am not Mr. Badass when it comes to leading. Also, I didn't think the first 120 feet of that last pitch sucked as bad as Mr. L suggests. Yes, there are some blocks wedged in there, but there is nothing scary about it and it is in a great location. The top-out rocks!

I liked the way Clint Cummins produced his Index guide. I found the topo drawings sufficient to find any climb I ever looked for (though I once had trouble finding the rock called "the lip") and it was in my view surprsingly accurate for how much new material it covered. I liked the simple presentation and his statement that anybody who wanted to do so was free to copy it and share it with their friends. There were no glossy photos, and little history, but the guide did the job for me. Aren't Falcon guides, as a rule, generally poorly done?

Thanks, Mystic. But "I won't show up anyway?" What are we supposed to do with that ?

I am sadly let down. I thought maybe you had promise....

'Don't know about any repeats, but I gotta say: I'd tip my hat to you if you'd repeat it. 5.10 and runout on bolts that are 1/4" and 20 years old; 5.10 climbing where you could hit the deck even if the bolts don't fail; and 4 bolts in 150 feet (I don't think you're going to get any additional pro with "gear"); and .... please don't fall and send us a route report if you try it. (And let me know if you want to go and replace those old bolts.)

What 'cha got against them? (Just curious.)

Walk along the big ledge below OnLine and when it starts to drop down, scramble up to another ledge system. Follow this one and it will drop and you can scramble up onto another. Do it again (a bolt with an oversized hanger will come in handy for a handhold), and you'll end up at the "Lost Charms Tree." From here, you step down a little and then climb out and right (all but the complete badass will require a belay). In most of a rope-length, with maybe a tcu or two as pro, you'll reach the Spaceport, a long and wide ledge at the base of Shock Treatment. From here, it is a relatively easy climb/scramble up to the Old Milwaukee Tree at the base of Fuddhat. It's worth it. Shock Treatment and Fuddhat/Kill de Wabbit are probably, in my opinion, the best routes at Static Point (I haven't done them all and the routes through the roof below the Curious Cube, in particular, look as if they may be pretty good). It is possible to avoid all the scrambling and climbing to get to Spencer's Spaceport and the Old Milwaukee Tree, but it is not really any easier or safer, and the more "standard" traverse I describe is the way to go.