mattp

If anybody feels inclined to write in response to this request for comments, one thing to keep in mind is that it is a NATIONAL RECREATION AREA. In the Ross Lake National Recreation area and in the nearby Mount Baker National Recreation Area, they have expended huge amounts of public money to groom roads for snowmobiling, build and maintain boat ramps, build wheelchair accessible trails for the handicapped, develop extensive campgrounds, maintain parking and access support for a variety of private resorts, and they have built five huge dams. We might have a lengthy debate about the environmental impacts associated with these activities, or whether ANY public land in our precious North Cascades should be subject to such abuse, but I think rock climbing should be seen as belonging in a National Recreation Area just as much as these other uses and the impact associated with rock climbing in the Ross Lake National Recreation Area pales in comparison with these other activities that receive very heavy public sanction and subsidy.

Jonah - In my view, right by the road would probably be the number one place where you should NOT put up new bolted climbs at Snoqualmie Pass -- or perhaps the number two place, with the number one place being anywhere the designated ski areas. I know there are some places where we coexist OK with other users, but why set up a potential conflict? Instead, walk a few minutes up the hill or down the trail....or are you just trolling?

Why isn't one of the responses to your other poll like this: [pollstart] [polltitle=Ski Poll] [polloption=None of the above. TLG should simply bail out because the skiing in Colorado SUCKS!] [pollstop]

Check out the cool climber's website at www.cascadeclimbers.com!

That's right, Geordie. We'ave always told anybody who asked about doing something we might not want to do that they are an idiot. However, some cc.com posters have in fact been up to look at north-facing slopes in the Cascade Pass area in the last three weeks, while others have driven up that road recently and can report on how far it is possible to drive. Catbird's "blanket" dismissal only states the obvious, without providing any information I couldn't gleen from sitting at my desk and thinking about it for ten seconds. It is still a good answer, though, and if you told me that over the telephone when I called the Marblemount Ranger Station I'd reply "thanks, but has anyone been up there lately despite all that? Is the original post a troll? Perhaps -- and it would be a good one because, as you correctly note, you guys are just replying the way we always have....

OK so n ow we know that you wouldn't want to go there right now, Catbird. Fair enough. Apparently he has a different idea.

I'd like to know what was "dumb" about the question in the first place. Yes, conditions change daily up there -- and especially at this time of year -- but had somebody been there in the past two weeks the guy would still be interested to hear what they had to say if he is wondering about "conditions" up there and perhaps if he hasn't been in the hgh Cascades this time of year, he'll appreciate hearing somebody's general ideas on the matter based on prior years' experiences.

Where is the hardcore guy who comes flaming in here to say: bullshit, you pussies. You are a bunch of whiners. Index ratings are just fine - everywhere else is soft. I remember the old days when Angel was 5.7, while Damnation, and Outer Space were rated 5.8 -- those were ratings! And whadayameen about Toxic Shock. I see kids going up there, climbing the 5.5 Even Steven start, liebacking the handcrack, and saying they climbed 5.9. Climber's these days....

Yeah, and on Breakfast she still gets the no hands rest slight up from that "hands" rest stop. It is still hard, though....

In Dave's new guidebook, it lists the first ascent party for Jacob's Ladder as "Matt Perkins and the universe." I am somewhat embarrassed, but I went up there so many times with so many different people that I can't remember who all helped with the project. Among those who went up there to work on it with me are Todd Budden, Rod Fox, Chris Greyell, Jason Gunderson, Mark Hanna, Jeff Hansel, Erik Neumann, Dave Schuldt, Erik Snyder, and Chuck Spiekerman. Who else did I forget? Mr. Berdinka - did you go up there and work on it with me, or simply cruise it after it was done?

The first time I skied the SW Chutes was one of the more memorable ski runs I have ever had. My buddies and I had been going out "partying" and skiing quite a bit, pursuing "turns all year" but also just enjoying the camping and the dirty jokes that boys tell along the way. On this particular occasion, half the guys couldn't go so we all fit into one car, a Cadillac with a trunk so large that the skis fit inside it. We didn't have a map, but Doug said he knew the way. We drove around the long way through Yakima, and then headed up washboarded logging roads that took us into the Indian Reservation. I wondered about this, but Doug said he knew the way. We kept complaining that we were lost, and Doug said "I got it." After what seemed like hours of choking on all the dust (it was July and there hadn't been any rain for weeks) we came around a corner to see the same sign we'd passed before and realized kimosabe had taken us around in a circle. STOP! We insisted it was time to stop driving and go to sleep right there. In the morning, we headed into Trout Lake for breakfast. The waitress was kind of flirty, and we enjoyed a leisurely breakfast before heading up to the trailhead. It was probably nearing ten o'clock before we got there, but we had all day. On up the trail, we stopped to throw rocks at marmots who were raiding somebody's campsite at timberline and then we decided to get even more juvenile so we turned the pack stays around in somebody's pack left there – I bet THAT wasn't a comfortable hike out! On up the mountain, we enjoyed joking with a 75 year old fisherman who was climbing the standard south spur climbing route at our slow pace. There were all kinds of people there: there was a group of girls wearing lipstick, families, and I think Daniel Boone even passed us by. At the summit, we posed for photo's with at least 25 other people, and strapped on the skis. The first part of the descent was all sastrugi, and our friend Phil (who hadn't been on one of these outings before) said "you guys are crazy!" and took his skis off. Down at the false summit we discussed which way to go, and Phil was very concerned about the icy slopes and the fact that you couldn't see over the edge when looking down toward the SW Chutes. It'll be fine, we said, as we started down toward the drop with Phil's eyeballs bugging out. He didn't feel safe going the other way by himself, so he followed cautiously. The top of the ski run has a convex shape to it, so you drop a couple hundred feet as it steepens and you still can't see the bottom. Suddenly, about three hundred feet down, we could see all the way down to a blue lakelet at the bottom and the snow softened so we started to feel that there was at least SOME chance that somebody might be able to arrest a fall by employing the skipole arrest. "You ever done a skipole arrest before, Phil?" "Huh what?" Down at the lakelet, we stopped for a celebration and somebody passed a flask. Looking back up at our tracks, we were all pretty stoked. It had been a fantastic ski run, in great condition, with excellent views; 3500 feet of non-stop turns in one continuous drop. "You guys are NUTS," said Phil. But then it was time to go again, and we found a little finger of snow continuing on down. Our snow finger headed into a pile of rock, but kept going – we were skiing on a six to fifteen foot wide finger of snow obviously overlying a streambed. At one point the snow just about ran out, but at the last minute could hop turn around a boulder and it opened back up again to head rightward onto another short open slope for the last bit of a ski run. Following us down that gully, skiing way to fast and with no concern for the rocks Phil had screemed "YOU GUYS ARE CRAZY!" Taking our skis off at timberline, there was a nice stream there and we sat for a bit in the late afternoon sun. Phil allowed as he'd had a good day. Here's a picture I took on a subsequent trip down the SW Chutes:

No, eric8, look again: I said it wasn't 5.5. However, if backed into a corner I'll say it isn't 5.6 either (that slab where Fred and Helmey gave each other a shoulder stand is 5.7 for one move, I think). Also, most topo's and route descriptions make it sound like three relatively straight-forward pitches - most "newbie" climbers belay about five pitches and find them far from straight-forward. Then there's the issue of getting their rope stuck on the way down, and the deadly bowling alley approach/descent gully is no joke either.... I'm with you in having been stumped by that first move on Zoom, though.

I've always thought Breakfast of Champions was kind of hard for the .10a rating. Also, I think the Beckey Route on Liberty Bell is one of the most underestimated routes around. My N. Cascades Alpine guide says 5.5!

I'm pretty much with Glasgow on the dogs. There have been a couple of times when I've actually enjoyed somebody else's dog being there, and sometimes people are able to bring their dog along without having it beg for food, lie down in the middle of the trail, or shit in the woods. But not very often. And think of the poor dog. Even the Siberian huskies that we had when I was a child wouldn't enjoy being tied to a tree at the base of an ice climb for several hours (set 'em up with a harness and they sure had a good time dragging a sled all over some horzontal ice and snow, though).

I say you have no right to demand somebody get out of your way just because you want to lead the pitch and they are using a toprope. If they are tying up a climb for several hours while a group of eight climbers rehearses the line, you would not be out of line to suggest that you'd like to have a chance to have a go at it -- but you WOULD be out of line, in my view, to think you had an absolute right to insist that they get out of your way. Wuld that diagonal pitch crossing the top-rope lines be the start of Zebra Zion? Whoever put up all those sport lines there created a ready-made conflict that is here to stay. With a little bit of tact and cooperation, one should be able to diagonal on through without ruining everybody else's day -- but I personally would try to get on the route (ZZ) early or late in the day when there are few or no other parties in the way.

IF you follow Dima's link, above, that's what it says.

The Cascade River Road was plowed to the Eldorado Creek trailhead the year before last. You might get lucky and find it plowed to the road closure at mile 18.1 - I believe that is about two miles from Eldorado Creek.

Catbird, you are right that things have gotten better with the route reports. I do still delete what I consider to be obnoxious posts from time to time, though. I do not think it is in any way inaccurate to state that many people who would otherwise post trip reports do not do so because they fear somebody is going to ridicule them for taking 2 ½ days to climb the Serpentine Arete, flame them for mentioning that somebody might want to bring a couple of pins on their rack, or complain about their writing style. You actually seem to like to be flamed, so I'm not surprised to see you argue that it is no big deal, but others do not. Is there a crisis? No. Could things be handled better? Yes.

Once upon a time we believed that education was important and that everybody in our society should have equal opportunities. Now, it seems, we have decided that public education is some kind of cesspool not worthy of our tax money and that there is nothing wrong with a system under which the richer you are, the better schools your kids can attend.

That's it!

I'll agree with you that it is geneally considered bad form to attack a man rather than an argument, PP, but in Rupert Murdock's case I think we can make an exception.

You got that right, Mr. Puget. You won't see anybody if you go here: The only problem is, it isn't in some guidebook to "select" climbs.

Ground-up efforts suffer from more problems than just the lack of cleaning, in my mind. True, I have dug out some cracks on rappel that I would have completely neglected in favor of bolted face climbing had I been leading something and when I've climbed from the ground up a first ascent I have left cracks and faces uncleaned, but one of the big problems with ground-up climbing is that you can't see where all the ledges is. When you look down a route, you can often see a lot more about what is going on. And we have talked in the past about how the leader who may be fearing for their well-being doesn't have the time or inclination to think about things the same way the guy hanging on a top-rope may. My one or possibly two pitch a day limit stems not just from the logistical issue of how many hours there are in a day, though. I think it also has to do with the amount of actual care that should go into placing bolts - and I just don't think most of us are good for more than that before we start doing a poor job of it.

I often use the parallel turn when I'm tired, or when in some kind of deepness, or when I'm just on hardpack and feeling lazy, true. But there are some kinds of breakable crust and other horror show material that I find the telemark is better. And I'm sorry to say it, but although you are much faster than I am, you are no Jean Claude Killy, Mr. K. If you wanna look pretty on your skis, you're going to have to get your head out of the toilet and go back to ski school.

Slappy- Yes, rap bolted sport climbs established with a power drill can be set at an alarming rate, but I don't think GOOD climbs can be set via rappel much faster than one can make a first ascent from the ground up. I don't have any experience with one-pitch crags, but on the bigger climbs, at least, it takes days and days to clean a line, TR and pre-inspect it, and properly equip it with bolts and chains. And assuming unlimited battery power or one of the newer drills that gets a zillion holes to a charge, the ground-up first ascent might well go much faster (though I don't think that the climbs would come out as well). Even on a sport-crag, I would guess that one should not try to do much more than a pitch a day -- maybe two on a good day -- if they are really trying to do a good job of it. And this speedy route development assums one is setting a route comfortably below their limit where working the moves is not an issue. (Tthough not too far below their limit -- I maintain that a 5.12 climber is probably not qualified to put up a 5.6 climb because they may not be able to tell where the real 5.6 challenges and the relevant "natural weaknesses" lie.) What do you think?