mattp

dberdinka: I didn't move it. I was asked in advance of the move, however, and I replied that I wasn't going to move it but if they wanted to do so I suppose there was a lot of spray there. Your beef is with those who turn an interesting discussion into a pissing match, not with me. I have volunteered to use the sheers on it so that it can be exported back, though.

I'm with you, Trask. It is time to take a firm stand against allowing any climbing talk in YOUR forum.

I find the shorter pins generally more useful than longer ones. I'll often bring 2-3 kb's and 2 lost arrows or something .. maybe a baby angle. It often seems to be the case that the actual selection isn't all that crucial but having a few small pins on the rack comes in handy when you are around iced up or snow-plastered rock and want to get in a good belay somewhere even on a relatively moderate snow and ice climb such as the TC's that you cited as an example; the fact that somebody used a thin KB last week doesn't mean you'll even see the crack that they placed it in when you are up there next week. I'm not trying to be snide but Cavey really told you all you really need to know the first time around because it is not a precise kind of a thing.

I would not hesitate to use a half rope for glacier travel. Be sure to have small diameter cord for the prussiks you bring to go with it, though.

The North Face of Mount Stanley, in the Rockies, was a "breakthrough" for me. I'd climbed mountains and hiked on glaciers before, but I'd been mostly a rock climber and I had a friend who said I should try alpine ice climbing, and I said OK: let's go to the Rockies AND the Bugaboos on this upcoming vacation. It was a breakthrough that eventually lead me away from rock climbing for several years. After I returned to rock climbing (with my re-activation brought on by a trip where we were supposed to go alpine climbing in Camonix but ended up in the Verdon Gorge), I had a great day leading every pitch on the Davis Holland/Lovin Arms route -- that was the first time I was the sole leader on a climb of that overall steepness and sustained difficulty, and I took from that day a significantly heightened confidence. I couldn't lead that entire climb now, but the confidence remains. Breakthrough's are as much mental and emotional as a physical leap from 5.10d to 5.11 or whatever, and these two experiences represent a couple of times where one day's climbing changed a whole lot about how I feel about the sport.

I think the "route to do" on Mount Aspiring may be the S. Face, but the ridge you mentioned is a better choice for you and your dad, probably. Mt Aspiring, New Zealand NW ridge on left, SW on right, January 1999 Low snow year...more indicative of March Photo credit: Jethro Robinson

Ehmic- What about the (in my vuiew more likely) possibility that studies might show that climbing is LESS dangerous than insurance companies may believe. We've had plenty of discussions here about how insurance company perspective seems out of balance -- such as how life insurance is difficult to obtain, or at least policies without exceptions for climbing, yet as far as I know European consumers can get such insurance because they understand and accept climbing more over on that side of the ocean. Similarly, Gary pointed out recently that organized climbing activities are discouraged by the UW, because they fear liability (obviously based on the idea that climing club outings would be dangerous). A survey might show that most people survive their college outing club trips without injury. Of course his study isn't designed to really support these kinds of findings -- I'm just pointing out that it could equally cut either way as to the issue that you brought up.

Josh - You can do it! People climb the Linda Glacier all the time and most of them live. It is a serious mountain, though, and Dru is right to point out that just getting to the hut can be quite a climb in itself (and not without its hazards). The guides are pretty good, and Mount Cook is a very cool prize. If you and your dad are attracted to Mount Cook because it is Mount Cook, Aspiring is just not quite the same (it is a very cool looking mountain in its own right, however).

That is www.cands.net, Bronco. Here's a picture either of Three Fingers or perhaps Whitehorse - with another probably unclimbed E. wall.

As a concerned citizen, I feel compelled to add: DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME, FOLKS!!!! (I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to see if I can avoid ever taking a fall with crampons on my feet and tools in both hands -- and I don't think I want to climb with RBW, either, because I don't want to be around when he tries it for time #3. The way I see it, RBW's tried twice to hurt himself - and the third time's the charm, right?)

Valid point, Goatboy -- the "gun barrels" are a serious hazard. However, I don't recall thinking we spent an inordinate amount of time in harm's way, and I thought the route was challenging, beautiful, and highly rewarding. The success rate is low, I think, because it is a big climb on a big mountain -- and because the weather sucks down there. The Silverhorn is a safer climb in some ways, but a party had a major epic on it when I was there and the place should not be underestimated. Here is one of the technical pitches on the Linda Glacier route: Above this, there is several hundred or a thousand feet of climbing that is steep and exposed, just short of what most of us would call technical ice climbing. I ended up lowering my partner down the entire thing rather than simulclimbing and trusting that he wasn't going to take us both for the big ride. Although he was a cocky guy and not the type to want to be babysat, he thanked me for being careful up there! Indeed, the Linda Glacier route is no "mere slog" in my book.

Its just another game to play, Josh. Some people want to climb the highest 100, others want to solo climbs that others use a rope on, and others want to tick all the routes in Jim Nelson's book or ski all twelve months of the year. It is all pretty much a game -- consider the completely arbitary rule that it is OK to clip a piece of gear for pro but you didn't really climb the pitch if you use it to hold body weight. There is nothing absolute or right about that principal - it is just how we all play the game. Whatever your game may be, that is OK by me.

I recall they have a storm on average once every three days. If you want to maximize your chances, allow plenty of extra time. I got lucky and did two climbs in a week, but some of the locals were mad because they, though strong climbers, hadn't been successful on two major climbs in several years' worth of vacations.

I climbed it with a partner who had never been on a rope before. Yes, it would be possible. The Linda Glacier route is non-technical or minimally technical except for just a couple of pitches. You and he will know you've climbed something, though -- especially if you climb from the bottom (many parties fly to the Plateau Hut). All in all, it is about like climbing a moderately challenging North Cascade alpine climb with the Ptarmigan Ridge on top of it. I believe it is 6,000 feet from the Plateau Hut to the summit.

All lies.

Uhhh .... Crackbolter: This is a climbing website. We talk about climbing here. That includes both new routes and repeats -- some folks like to get psyched up for either one. What's your point? Are you suggesting that there should not be any discussion of lines that may not have been climbed yet?

You ever been skiing up around Pemberton?

Wouldn't it actually make Jon and Timmy NATO commanders?

If the Carbon River road is not open, I would think you would be approaching from the West Side road or possibly Champion logging company roads right outside the park rather than the White River Road. In May the White River Road will almost certainly not be open anyway but even if it is, I think it would probably be much easier to walk in from the West Side Road. Also, if you are hoping not to descend the climbing route, the Tahoma Glacier descent would be just about as easy as descending the Emmons back toward the White River. In addition to the possible avalanche and weather concerns already noted, rockfall can be a serious hazard on that route and although much of the source areas will be covered in snow that time of the year, I'd be worried about the "weather" even if it was clear if you found you had a significant warming trend when you planned to be there.

Bronco - do you really believe that anything the Bush Administration has promoted has had anything to do with compromise? Only liberal wimps compromise and that is certainly not how they do things back home in the great state of Texas.

Indeed, Dru, you are brilliant to point out that those New Zealand ethics are specific to a different country with different access issues and different social norms. I disagree with your idea that bad behavior at crags or disgusting route names do not have any potential to contribute to having climbing restricted or shut down, though. At Vantage, the climbing area shares a parking lot with a hike that is in a guidebook to fifty popular hikes for children or something like that. I once arrived there to see a large poster on the bulletin board announcing a bunch of new climbs with route names like "smells like teen pussy," "menstruating whale snatch," and "too loose to come." Do you think those people who are taking their kids out for a nature hike want them to see that poster - or want them to hear some frustrated climber yell "this fucking route sucks?" Might they complain to the ranger about such a thing? Might the ranger take a dim view of it, too? You may think those route names are clever, and I'm not saying that they will be sufficient to get Vantage closed to climbing -- but things like that do not help our cause.

For an example of how it is that I think "codes of conduct" would address a broader ranger of issues, consider this -- from the New Zealand Alpine Club website: Code of Conduct for Rockclimbers Permission Before entering other peoples' land permission must be obtained. Any agreements made must be strictly followed. Accept that sometimes you may be refused permission to enter the land because of current circumstances, eg. family gathering, lambing/calving. Impact Any rockclimbing must have the lowest possible impact on the crag and environs. Points to note are: No climbing on special areas such as burial grounds, artefact sites, stalagmites and stalactites, areas of rare wildlife or other such identified areas Rockclimbers should limit their activities at a crag to the cliff, its top and its base, preserving areas such as native bush and reserves for all. Keep tracks to a minimum A crag is a small area and should not be used as a toilet All rubbish should be taken from the crag, including biodegradables Route Preparation This should be done to ensure minimum impact while ensuring the route is safe to climb. Talk to the landowners before cutting or removing vegetation. It is important that the route be prepared properly so the job does not have to be done twice. All ropes, slings etc. used in cleaning must be taken when leaving the crag, as these are often unsightly. Fixed Gear and Anchors In some areas climbs may have to be equipped with bolts or pegs. It is stressed that this gear is placed only for safety reasons. Where possible use the same belay point for several routes. At bolt station belays, the double bolt and chain set-up is the minimum standard. Bolts, where necessary, should be placed using the following as a guide: Make every bolt safe to use Use the best or most appropriate type for the rock Use care when considering bolt placements - note the distance between bolts, and ease of clipping. Naming Routes The prerogative of the first ascentionist. Care should be taken not to offend others with the selected name. It is not worth incurring the wrath of the local iwi, ranger, farmer or landowner for the sake of a crude or derogatory route name. This can cause a crag to be closed. Behaviour Remember that your voice carries some distance from the cliff, sometimes far enough to be heard by landowners and other land users who may be upset by obscenities and offensive phrases uttered in the heat of the moment on a climb. Before stripping off for a swim, consider if nudity might be offensive to landowners. It sometimes is! On a farm: Leave gates as you find them (open or shut) Cross fences at stiles preferably or at strainer posts, and cross locked gates at the hinged end Leave your dog and gun at home Do not distress or molest the stoc Before driving across farmland you must check with the farmer. Cultural Considerations Where crags have special cultural significance, cultural sensitivities and any issues arising must be resolved before climbing commences. In particular, aspects such as burial grounds and tapu on Maori land must be addressed. Relevant specialists may need to survey the crag. Communications Maintain good communications. A few minutes of polite discussion can mean an uninterrupted day's climbing, whereas a few hurled insults can result in no further access for climbers ever. Be courteous and respectful. Camping Camp only in designated areas and keep a tidy camp. Completely extinguish any campfire after use. Safety Inherent in climbing is an element of risk. Some flaunt it, others respect it, some choose to ignore it. In the final analysis you are responsible for your own safety. Nobody has to do a particular route. If a route is too necky for you, back off. Climb as safely as possible. Beware of loose rocks; they cause considerable damage to people and equipment when dislodged. Some crags are notorious for having loose rocks on the routes and on access/descent tracks. Wearing a helmet could save you from serious injury. All things being equal, softer rock is more likely to have protection fail; keep this in mind when placing wires at some of the softer rock crags. Treat all fixed gear with suspicion - you do not know its history. Access to crags is a privilege not a right! This information may be copied for redistribution on the condition that it is reproduced in full and no items or objects represented on this leaflet are omitted. Page from NZ Alpine Club site.

Well now there you may have a point, CJF. Except I remember once when I "debated" the issue with my friends we all agreed OK. Actually, I believe we have at times been able to have a nearly reasonable discussion of some parts of the issue even here on cc.com, but as a general rule I think you are correct that certain "ethical" issues related to climbing are very emotional and lead to combative rhetorical confrontation rather than more civil discussion. Are climbers different in this respect than, say, surfers or soccer players? I'm not sure.

I'd say that would be a poor place to start, Sobo. One might get the impression from that thread or others like it that bolting is the only issue or the most important issue when it comes to "codes of conduct" and access issues for climbers in Washington. They might also get the idea that climbers cannot discuss challenging issues without resorting to childish name calling.