mattp

I've always liked Scaleburger, and the collection of antique saws in the store next door is pretty cool.

Maybe they should just give a link to cc.com and say that everything you need to know can be found here.

Gary: It would not be slander to offer an opinion such as "in my view, it is not a good idea to climb icy slopes without a belay... blah blah blah. That is a statement of opinion. It might be slander to say "that kid died because he violated a rope closure" when in fact he did not. It is only slander when the statement is false.

Have you ever seen me argue for a pull out? What would give you the idea that I would call for it? I'm not sure pulling out would be a good plan. I know there are those who say that our presence there is actually fomenting violence and that we are not making progress, and perhaps it would be a good idea to pull out if this is true and if there is little or no prospect to turn things around. But we are not getting anything resembling real information upon which I can make such a call. Based on what I know of the situation, I think the only real defensible position would be that we are there as long as the government of Iraq wants us. As long as we're saying that we've installed a democratically elected government to replace the former regime of terror, and sovereign democracies are what we want to see in the region, I believe we ought to respect our rhetoric. My guess is the Iraqi government would like us to stay for a while. If, of course, we are there for some other objectives, such a policy statement won't fly because if they asked us to leave, we would refuse to do so. But I think this position is a lot more sensible than some "pull the troops out by December 31" type of statement. In my view, "we're not going to tell anybody what our objectives are or what are plans are," when we unilatteraly started a completely optional war that has severely undercut stability in an important part of the world and is killing tens of thousands as well as probably increasing the prospects for international terrorism doesn't cut it.

Yes, that Thin Fingers pitch is great. Index has lots of great stuff. But for 6 great pitches in a row, Davis Holland/Lovin Arms is hard to beat. Both of the S. Face Prussik routes are great, too, and the setting is better, but for Just Plain Classic Rock Climbing do the Davis Holland Lovin Arms!

I've said it before, but I'll say it again: I think it is the best 5.10 climb in Washington. Every pitch is good, and all are different.

the first pitch is often wet. What did you think of that second pitch?

Crux, I haven't looked at the details of that story, but I don't think I'd feel warm and fuzzy about the cngresional Republicans if I were in the military. After all, your commander in chief sent troops to Iraq with completely inadequate equipment and troop numbers, and made sure any general who told him so got sacked. And the Republican congress keeps backing this guy and all they can say is "stay the course." Don't get me wrong, howvever: I'm not necessarily much more confident in the Democrats. But we sure have not seen any success with Republican leadership.

Back at you, Fairweather. Do you even read the newspaper? They spun off swiftvote vets for smear to divert attention, but nobody from BushCo really even tried to deny that your buddy George skipped out on his duties.

Still not following you. Or maybe I am. The story that Rather got fried for was absolutely true. The document he waived in front of the camera was apparently a forgery, but the story it told was absolutely true. The White House did such a good job manipulating and distorting things that the main story that came out in everybody's mind was "Rather was biased" rather than "Bush shirked his duties." Good point.

I'm not following you there, PP.

That is a great reason to go to war and it is turning out really well. Fairweather for President in 2008!

You apparently agree with the neocons who said they wanted to invade Iraq from day one of the Bush presidency, back when they were complaining that the outgoing Clinton folks were obsessed with terrorism and saying that we shouldn't engage in "nation building?"

I agree. I saw a climber dropped when the end of the rope went through somebody's gri gri during lowering off, and I've seen people chasing rolling packs, dogs unleashed, and lord knows what all.

Aha. Turn bout is fair play. You are "improving" your posts just as I am (I would say that I only edit for grammer and similar matters, not for actual content, and that you actually sought to strengthen your argument, but we could have a whole tangential debate about that, I'm sure). OK then, moving on... What do you actually think Rove may have done or not done?

Fairweather, I don't now about the "reply to" lines, but I distinctly got the impression you were replying to my post when you referred to Vince Foster in immediate reply to where I mentioned him. And I don't see where he was previously mentioned by any party to this thread. Silly me. Carry on with your whatever.

Fairweather makes the Element sound OK. Has anyone here used one for 100,000 miles? I'm curious - maybe this is a good car.

Sorry, Fairweather. I'm not following. What are you saying? Is some speculation or even some disclosure of grand jury proceedings relevant to what I or you think about what Rove did or didn't do?

Fairweather: The burden of proof, when we are talking about what we think of public figures, lies in WHAT THE HECK DO YOU THINK? What the heck do you think? Were Clintonites guilty in the Vince Foster affair but Bushites not guilty in this mess? If I ran a search on this board, would I find where you've previously speculated about the guilt of someone not proven guilty?

Yes, the Outback does great on relatively good logging roads. You can drive 50 on washboards or loose gravel and it will track pretty well. I think the Forrester is lighter and not as good for this, but somebody else may have another idea. The Outback is also a great highway car. On these kinds of road, though, pretty much any car will get there. If you want to sleep in the back and be able to park easier in town, as well as be able to drive a rougher road, I'd opt for a small 2x4 PU with canopy - but the Subaru is not a bad compromise vehicle.

I agree with Catbird. I have driven 4x4 and 2x4 pickups, and found I could get just about anywhere in my 2x4 that my buddies could go with the 4x4's, though once in a while the 4x4 made a significant difference - most often being able to turn around on an unplowed road and being able to creap over a washout rather than having to take a run at it. When I upgraded to 4x4 I noticed lower gas mileage more than greater access. Similarly, I've driven fwd and awd station wagons, and the former get better mileage and are cheaper when you need break jobs and stuff. Thing is, though, my Subaru wasn't available as an fwd. AWD is better when you are driving in a snowstorm, but that is relatively few of the days that I am on the road. My Subaru is great on the highway, and quite smooth on the gravel logging roads, but isn't an off-road vehicle, doesn't get great mileage, and is harder to park than I would like. What are your priorities?

You'd have to check with Mike on that, Marko. I know that Leland insisted that he knew where Mikes line had deviated from IB at least in some spots in that middle portion, too. As to the Greyell/Whitelaw line, I think that is a completely lost part of our heritage.

Marko - one photo is here: Scroll down to page 4 of 6 I believe subsequent discussion may have indicated there was some deviation lower down, as well, but I'm not sure. I think David Whitelaw and Chris Greyell climbed this feature about 20 years earlier.

I'd say at least some of those you refer to - on both sides - actually DO care, Dru. I'd also say that sometimes we have had some good discussions and I've even learned a thing or two on cc.com. I agree if you are saying that much of the time we seem to work ourselves into a frenzy with no real progress, though, and the conflict/bolt wars/name calling often do more harm than good.

Fair enough, Archy. We will continue to be forced to speculate because the unprecedented level of secrecy, spin and manipulation of the press employed by this Administration gives us scant little "factual" information to go on.