mattp

I think the Direct East Buttress is spectacular for five pitches and there is not much that is distasteful getting to or down from it, but maybe that is just me. Anyway, I'll have to try the Lexington route.

When I climbed Liberty Crack, we certainly used more than a half dozen points of aid, but I agree that it is not so much of an aid climb as it is often perceived. I have not done it, but how does Thin Red Line stack up? An interesting related question is: what if any might be better choices for the Cascades. I think it is a pretty good list of some excellent climbs, though I might substitute Nooksak Tower Bertulis route for the Price Glacier (have not done the latter but have looked at it), and I think the upper half of the North Ridge on Stuart is the good part, so I'd say upper half only for that one or maybe Burgner Stanley on Prussik instead. Also, I think the Direct East Buttress on South Early Winter Spire is overall a better climb than Liberty Crack.

I'd say surviving your early days of climbing is half the battle but my friends who have been killed have been very experienced climbers, and especially when it comes to alpine climbing I wouldn't say experience = safety. Especially if you are drawn to ever bigger and more technical alpine climbs. When a friend of mine was missing in the Columbia Icefields some years back, the rangers pronounced them presumed dead, saying that with climbers of that many years' experience they were usually dead if missing so long. I didn't get the impression that from the rangers' perspective, many years' experience translated directly to safer.

Call the ranger station to verify, but my impression is that it is generally getting easier to get permits on a walk-in basis than it used to be. To me it has always made more sense to approach from the north for north side routes, though many don't like the Sherpa Col descent or other north side options.

Big Tree One is a good climb. It'd be even better if we went up there and cleaned that third pitch. If you really want to make him angry, send them up the third pich of Big Tree Two on lead. The crux moves come 27 feet out from the last pro.

As much as I agree that it is no longer what it used to be, I gotta say we should look at some of the good that comes with the bad here. For example, REI put up a major portion of the money behind the effort to reopen Peshastin Pinnacles some years back, and it is not called REI State Park. They were actively involved in the fixed anchor discussions six years ago, and they continue to support the Access Fund (I'm guessing) more than other companies of similar size. They're involved in some cool projects that actually support climbing and other recreational activities and I suppose one could say that Wallmart does the same kind of thing but never-the-less some of this is OK. Is it really a bad thing if they make hiking wear for obese people? I have not studied REI's history, and am not involved in any efforts to "reform" the company but isn't it true that at least some other successful and long-time coops have followed a similar evolution -- look at PCC for an example. Perhaps REI is in some ways a victim of its own success. Is there any possibility of somebody starting a new coop that would be more like the REI of olden times? Earlier in this thread, somebody noted that they "shut out" MEC. Are they in fact able to prevent a bunch of us from cc.com or anywhere else from banding together and getting some wholesale deals - or is it the gear manufacturers with their "manufacturer suggested retail" pricing that do so - or some combination?

in the 1970's, I believe the generally accepted answer to this question was the Troll Wall in Norway. Middendorf article. Maybe it was just the biggest cliff that had been climbed as of that time.

Great project. I see that you are logging on as Haireball, so I'm not sure about the montypiton identity, but anyway I hope you get some participation here. By the way, for what it is worth, I believe Dan Cauthorn wrote a book on this topic.

Larry is right - I've seen lots of people lose gear that is attached to the outside of a pack. But, if you are so inclined, a good way to carry a shovel on the outside of just about any pack is to put two snap hooks on the ice axe loops that are pretty much standard. Just slip the loop through the ring, and slide it over the hook and you have a square knot that will not untie. Then clip the hooks to the holes in the corner of your shovel, and use a keeper strap on your handle. You will not lose the shovel and it is very easy to stow/remove. This is more secure than simply shoving it into a shovel pocket.

Rudy makes a good point when he says that to master rock climbing, one must spend time on a variety of types of climbs. In that vein, I'd say that the climber looking to transition from the gym to outside climbing would probably learn more from first following someone on some old school trad crack climbs and slab routes and then working toward leading them than they would from simply moving to bolted climbs like the one that started this discussion: Condormorphamine. Even if they don't aspire to becoming the Index crack master or the runout slab dancer, they will learn skills that will really help on a variety of climbs including those more like the bolted gym routes they are used to - including Condomorphamine. Even if they don't want to continue chasing after climbs that wander around, require building your own belay anchors, developing rope signals to handle the possibility of not being able to see or talk to your partner from one end of the rope to another, lacing together several sketchy pieces of pro to protect some runout crux, or evaluating where to set a belay amid a pile of choss, these experiences will go a long way to teach you "what to think about" and how a momentary lapse in attention can be deadly.

Harry, do not read any thread where somebody asks for beta if you don't want beta.

I climbed it many years ago (about a week after the first ascent, in fact), and I thought it was only so-so. Maybe it is cleaner now, but I thought the original route on Snowpatch was far superior and, even though it has a bunch of squeeze chimney, I liked the McCarthy route better too.

I'd say it is a little more than that, Rudy. More than simply "using your brain," he is talking about a shift in orientation. You are right, though, that "using your brain" will go a long way...

I think the leg wraps work pretty well and are very easy to engage/disengage.

I too generally avoid tying knots in the ends of my rope because I don't want it to get stuck in cracks or bushes or whatever. However, on particularly steep terrain with an unknown destination anchor station, I generally do tie the knots. On low angle terrain, if the anchors are bomber, it often helps to have two climbers rappel at the same time, with one managing the "right hand" rope and the other manageing the "left hand" rope. I like Fern's checklist.

If they post on cc.com, you for one will belittle and insult them. It could be a good place to talk about such a transition, but for many it is not.

If you do go to Rainer, I'm sure you can find some spots on the lower Nisqually, by dropping down the hill from Alta Vista, the viewpoint about 20 minutes up the hill from Paradise. The Coleman may be better in terms of being a little more readily manageable, though.

Agon, I find your little "joke" rather tasteless. Our furry friends have been known to chew on a fixed line in the cover of darkness and claim there is no problem with it. On snaffles.com they are probably all talking about how it was really the climbers' fault!

Can you read? I clearly wrote that Lowell was correct in suggesting that I could have anticipated a problem and that while in the past I have known climbers to go to the Aurora Bridge for that purpose, other locations would make a better choice.

Actually, traffic was moving past unimpeded and there was no apparent rubbernecking problem or other interference with traffic until the police showed up and, by then, I had recoiled my rope and was ready to walk off the bridge. My guess is that, if asked, the officers who responded would agree that there was no apparent problem with the traffic until they showed up but nevertheless they were bound to do their job. Some guy doing something in the pedestrian walkway - glance over and drive on. Two police cars parked broadside in the middle of traffic on the bridge? Better take a close look and see what is going on as you squeeze by in the center lane or speed past in the opposite direction. I believe, Mr. Nelson, you are wrong in your assessment on this point.

Like I said: lessons learned. I have in fact heard of climbers venturing onto the Aurora Bridge for the same purpose in the past. Other less public locations would be a better choice.

Ouch!

Oh, and now that you mention it, I agree with you that what we do affects others around us. In this particular case, the police response actually could have caused an accident. I'm not critical of the officers involved, because they were just doing their job and when I think about it in retrospect, I am sure that when they get a 911 call about somebody on the Aurora Bridge they have to act. But you know what? Had one of them simply driven by first, before they stopped broadside, I bet they might have concluded I was not a threat to myself or anybody else as I stood there, coiling up a rope that I had by then piled onto the walkway. Should this be their protocol? I don't know. Like I said, I am not critical of the officers involved - they were cool.

Baloney you're not meaning to jump on anyone, NTC. You're jumping to conclusions and jumping on me. First of all, you talk about what hazard it is to be on the Aurora Bridge doing something pefectly legal at - oh my god - noon of all times. Hello: that was my lunch hour. That is when I had time to be there. It wasn't rush hour, or darkness. Then you restate my story as if to make out that I was refusing to come talk to or stand next to the cops of whatever. That is not correct. We were literally standing on opposite sides of a 6" guardrail. I was 100% responsive, walked over to them, talked to them, and was respectful. I answered their questions directly and honestly, and you somehow suggest I am improperly assuming they have some deep seated knowledge of climbing. As the conversation followed I offered more explanation but when a police offier asks me what I am doing I believe it is best to answer succinctly and honestly. But you read some other "motive" into my response. Lastly, you argumentatively ask "what was my complaint?" Look back: I didn't complain, but I told a story of the police doing their job and noted I thought the whole thing did have an element of silliness to it. Lowell is right to suggest that, considering the history of suicides on the bridge, I might have anticipated that somebody might be concerned by the sight of any activity that might be "unusual." However, try to be objective here and answer this: why is it that I am any more of a suicide risk than the person who is standing in the bridge without a rope -- if I were planning to jump, I would have stood there without a rope and everybody would have driven by without even a notice. As far as I know, there is no law against being on a pedestrian walkway at any hour, or hanging a rope from a bridge where it dangles onto a piece of grass. Lesson learned. I posted it on this site both as a humorous story (I think it is) but also so that others might not make the same mistake.