mattp

We had a good time on a trail that would be more to cascadeclimber's liking.

I have heard in the past that the old standard of 10% grades was for livestock, but perhaps they have an even lower standard for "Front-country" trails (it'd be hard to justify that for something more remote where greater fitness is required to get there in the first place, wouldn't it?). In trailbuilding workshops with the Access Fund, there was a guy named Jim Angel who used to say that the ideal angle for a climbers' approach trail was closer to 20%, where he said you could walk causally and maybe even have your hands in your pockets but nobody would feel compelled to cut switchbacks. Whether that is the exact right angle or not I'm not exactly sure but I liked his concept. I have never liked calf-straining trails that head straight up the hill as I find them uncomfortable, and they exacerbate runoff management and tend to become sandy or dirty or rocky trenches.

Yes, but don't bring him out of the box when there are hikers or land managers around.

Posters here have focussed on whether removing loose rocks constitutes some kind of unnatural impact and whether it is a safe practice. No matter how you defend our habits, clearly we have a biological and visual impact on the crags where we remove dirt or loose rock and vegetation. And that impact is in fact greater than the impact of even several tiny holes nearby, 3/8" wide by 3" deep - or even the importation of a foreign substance for installation into those holes. We can discuss it 'till we are blue in the face, but I don't think anti-bolting arguments are squarely rooted in environmental impact per se. As to safety, it might make the train tracks safer if climbers remove loose rocks as Joseph suggests, but I bet climber presence there is not overall an increase in safety for the railroad so I don't think we're going to get a good solid answer to that question, either. And crack cleaning or scrubbing? That is purely for our convenience and it brings more climbers which means more risk. I believe there is another, equally important issue: trundling large rocks or even cleaning relatively small ones, crack cleaning, and general scrubbing are rather dramatic activities that LOOK like high impact practices and LEAVE A VISIBLE REMINDER that can be seen from the ground. You may believe there was no bat nesting behind that rock or that moss and lichen are not endangered species, but I'd be willing to venture a guess that, on average, non climbers would be more concerned witnessing the aggressive cleaning of a route than they would the bolting of one. Land managers, property owners, and visiting hikers may be alarmed by our activity even if we think it is in the name of safety or that our recreational pursuit does no greater harm than hiking.

C&S Engineering sold them. I miss that guy.

Unlike the convoluted parsing of words from the right wing pundits seeking to throw smoke in your eyes, Fairweather, I have attemted to boil it down to a few simple points so that even you could understand it. Check the facts. Then dive back into Jay's smokescreen if you wish.

Why don't you address the facts? Even the Bush team doesn't refute the basics here. 1. Wilson was right, but Cheney and others in the Bush administration wanted to discredit him. 2. The Bush team WAS behind outing his wife and saying she got him sent on a junket. 3. Bush said he wouldn't tolerate leaks and would punish whomever leaked. 4. His team DID leak and he as well as everyone in America who can read a newspaper knows it. 5. (This part they have not yet admitted, but what do you think?) Bush is protecting his team.

Sorry to let you down, Fairweather and Jay, but I'm not going to bother wading into your smoke here. The facts are that Wilson was right, but Cheney and others in the Bush administration DID decide to try to discredit him and pay him back by outing his wife and saying she got him sent on a junket. They did so. Bush said he wouldn't tolerate leaks and would punish whomever leaked, but in fact his team DID leak, he knows it, and he has decided to protect them. That crap about what constitutes a violation blah blah blah, and the fact that Novak says he learned about it from Armitage who is "not a partisan player" blah blah blah, and blah blah blah ... those are distractions and I'm pretty sure you know this -- that's why you (jay) are having so much fun here. Enjoy your games.

Hey folks: The dome is waiting! I've made it sound big and bad here, and it is, but it is not THAT big and bad. This thing is fun!

KK has me on ignore, he says, so he won't respond to this. But clearly his post shows once again that he doesn't know how to read a newspaper. The investigation of the Plame leak was not undertaken by the Democrats.

How can you say no?

You are quite right there, Mr. B. that he commuted the sentence rather than pardoned it. That was sloppy writing on my part as I am aware of the difference. Do you really think that Scooter Libby is going to write a book now that he wouldn't have written if he went to jail? Are you nuts? He's not going to pay a dime of his fine, and what do you want to bet he gets the full pardon eventually -- the White House even specifically held out that "possibility" today. Libby will be taken care of and now there is no pressure for him to negotiate a lesser term in exchange for squealing on his boss.

I can buy the argument that Clinton was sleazy, perhaps, or that he pardoned a bunch of people who had "connections," but there really is no comparison of those pardons with this commutation of Libby's punishment. There was nobody in the Clinton Whitehouse thought to be in a position to reveal felony actions of high Clinton officials, because after nearly eight years of investigations the worst crime they could find was that of lying about a blow job. Bush pardoned Libby to protect his man Cheney or others in Cheney's office. Does anybody honestly believe otherwise?

I didn't mean to be THAT discouraging. The Dome is cool, folks! Lets do it.

Nope, this wouldn't be at the exits. It is in Darrington, approximately two hours' drive from Seattle, and the approach hike involves a thousand feet of scrambling. The climbs are about eight pitches plus two extra, or ten pitches total, topping out here: It isn't sport climbing. The West (Blueberry) Buttress and Dark Rhythm are mostly slab climbing and lower angle lieback flakes and such; Rainman and Jacob's ladder have some steeper face and crack climbing. A lot of it is bolt-protected, but you have to bring a full rack and all of the climbs have some significant runouts on them at some point or other even if the crux's are well-protected. It is great climbing up there, but the Dome is kind of a combination rock climb / mountain climb. It takes about ten rappels to get down. Darrington ROck Climbing web page on The Dome

Perfect length, maybe. But I wouldn't call them anything in the category of perfect climbs, would you? It is a fun practice area.

I assume we're talking about cragging, because I think most of us would agree that we'd be talking about different numbers if discussing traditional cragging, aid climbing, ice climbing, mountain climbing, or ski mountaineering, or whatever. For me, even cragging is largely about getting off the ground and thus I'd say a "perfect" length is at least three pitches, and maybe three to five pitches for a challenging crag climb. Here's a perfect crag (Bon Echo): and another(gunks): and another:(Lover's Leap) and another (Verdon): This last one is perhaps MOST perfect. You drop in from the top and are instantly 1,000 feet off the deck. The climbing is absolutely fantastic, quite safe, challenging as all hell, and the place accommodates climbers of all skill level. Add to that a plentiful supply quite decent table wine at a reasonable price, an ancient village with a wrecked castle on a hilltop not far away, and a sunny climate. You can have a most excellent time there with your fiance or your hard core rock fiend.

I'm not sure why I need to comment on this but I do think it worthy of note that there are some tricks to the trade, some aesthetic judgment and some calculation is involved, and to do things right often takes quite a bit of hard work. I'd say it in fact IS generally difficult to set a good route even if you are rap bolting an 80 foot crag. I'd not sure that negates PP's point in this particular discussion, though.

I've rarely found people to be as rude as Jens describes - at least not in recent years and not around here and not on short climbs. I run into more territorial issues on longer routes. We have a complaint-about-Outer-Space thread about once a month, it seems, but I always wonder: if you didn't want to climb with crowds, what were you doing on O. S. on a Saturday?

Last I heard, the route was OK. Too bad you won't be joining us on Wednesday! (See "partners" forum.)

Here's some of the goodness up there: Rainman, 5.10c Dark Rhythm, 5.10b Jacob's Ladder, 5.11b (or 5.10b A-0) West Buttress 5.9 These four routes are all about 8 pitches to the Blueberry Terrace, with a few more above that leading to the top of the Dome. Lets do it.

The weather forecast calls for a hot sunny day on Wednesday, and I bet lots of you have not yet made plans. The west side of Exfo Dome stays in the shade 'till about noon (well, maybe not the West Buttress or Westward Ho) so it makes a good choice for this kind of weather. There are six routes there, of varying difficulty 5.9-5.12. How 'bout a relatively early morning jamboree? There's room for multiple parties, and we could be all patriotic and stuff. Depending on how we play it, this would get you home in time for a nappy before the fireworks.

The Ballard Bar sounds interesting, though I might suggest the Kangaroo and Kiwi just because it ls a little more convenient for folks coming from other neighborhoods and I always enjoy it when we are able to get new people to show up. Who knows, maybe that Peter Puget guy will actually make it!