mattp

In effort to further stir the pot here, I'm curious what folks would say if he wrote that he was considering moving a bolt or two rather than adding one. What would you folks think if an FA of this or some other route were to say "you know, it seems to me that we put a couple of bolts in funny positions and they could be better located. I think I can do a clean job of removing a bolt, patching the hole, and reinstalling it in a better location."

There was another "funny scenario" a few years back, Otto, where somebody was quoted in a newspaper article, complaining about the proliferation of bolts on a Washington crag. I climbed one of the routes in question a few years later, recognized the bolting style, asked him about it; he confirmed that it was HE who had added the bolts. I said "Dude!" We both got a good chuckle out of it.

I too have been climbing this route for many years and I don’t really have a strong vote either way but I think the 25 year history of the route argues at least somewhat in favor of leaving it alone. There are other “comfortably” bolted 5.7 routes in the canyon now, and my guess is that adding bolts there would generate enough of a stir that it is not worth it. That said, I think we should recognize that the discussion here is probably not reflective of what most climbers actually think. Yes, a 5.7 climber can lead that route - when it is dry - but I’d be willing to guess that if you stood by with a clipboard, you would have found more than half who have climbed that route over the last 20 years said it was a bit scary and they would not have objected to another bolt or two. I bet the number is 80% (wink) if you asked them immediately upon reaching the belay instead of when they are comfortably behind a keyboard and given an opportunity to show how “pure” they are in a forum where to suggest you would like to see any more bolts in this world is going to draw snickers or worse. This doesn't answer the question whether there should be more bolts, but along with the history of the route and the answers you get here I think it is part of the mix.

That's why I don't like Westlake Mall. We were supposed to get a downtown park. We mostly got development.

As I indicated above, I'm not sure the Stehekan road is all that high of a priority in my mind but I can certainly see why those with an investment in that particular valley would want it and I agree with those who say that road would not threaten the integrity of the North Cascades. Anyway, access in general is suffering and I'd like to learn more about what Norm Dicks is doing. Maybe we could do more than simply send him a "thumbs up" letter.

Bush says his office, like Cheney's, is exempt from his own order. LA Times

I find all of this very interesting, and I can think of a couple of occasions in the last few years where I might have wanted to use one of these more complex equalized anchors but I wonder just how often all of this complexity is warranted. Whether in the mountains or at the crags, 99% of the time I simply tie in to the closest and or most secure anchor to where I want to sit or stand, and make sure I have one or two "back up" anchors attached by whatever is the most convenient combination of slings or the main belay rope. I appreciate the information, and next time I want to take some time out of a climbing day to "play with anchors" I will try some of this stuff, but failing belay anchors seem to me to be one of the least important things to worry about and way down the list beyond inadequate pro, edges that have the potential to cut the rope, or just plain rope management. Am I missing something?

That boulder start is another one of those things that I think has gotten a little harder over the years. I was at one time able to do it on a toprope, and I can't remember clearly but I think I actually bouldered it when I was younger and dumber and had it rehearsed.

I don't find that last move on the dogleg crack of HOC to be 5.8. It is rattly hands for one maybe one and a half moves.

You gotta admire his pluck!

Articles in today's LA Times and Washington Post report a story about Cheney, refusing to comply with a Bush Presidential Order about security procedures, and one of the grounds for that refussal is that he says he is not really part of the Executive Branch. LA times Washington Post Wow.

Jay: do you have a point or are you simply taunting?

You were attempting the upper part of GM correctly. It starts out as a body squeeze (awkward 5.9), and then you stand on top of the thing to make a few facy moves up and right to a ledge at the same height as the top of that Heart of the Country crack to the right. From there, it takes off again as steep, roughly 5" crack that feels like 5.9d. It is a good practice route for the fat cracks on climbs like NW Face North Early Winter Spire or Backbone Ridge on Dragontail. If you can climb that think OK you'll find those routes easy.

I have some serious doubts about the intellectual capacity of many of my climbing friends, too! So how does this work - or how might it? We learn to rationalize about things that will be challenging or rationalize our way through scary situations?

I'd be interested to hear about it if you found some consistent correlation between our status as climbers and any particular coping mechanism. Although I bet a high percentage of climbers will tell you that the lessons they've learned in the mountains or on the rock translate to "daily life," I'm a bit skeptical. Folks I've known as climbers over the years come in all shapes and sizes, but most are really rather "average." I used to work for Outward Bound and I instructed groups ranging from screw up kids to adult professionals. We always talked a lot about "personal growth" and stuff like that, but I'm not convinced there was any great therapeutic benefit in rapelling or carrying a pack around the hills. With the hoods in the woods, I did think that our assessments of personality traits and "who was most likely to succeed" in what-the-heck reform school were more consistently accurate than those of the social workers who evaluated them based on a couple of interviews but I really don't think we did a lot for little Johnny's self esteem or whatever.

If you climb the lower portion of Backbone Ride that everybody avoids by heading out left and back right as per Nelson's guide, you won't climb any snow on the route at all. I don't really recommend this alternative because there is some harder climbing there and it is less enjoyable than what you find higher on the route, but this is what I did on a May ascent of the route many years ago and it is an option.

I agree, Telemack: cc.com discussions of bolting and related topics all-too-often degenerate to slander/cussfests but then again so do many other discussions around here - and on many other websites. This phenomenon certainly discourages any balanced or reasoned discussion and has nearly eliminated substantive participation from professional climbers, guidebook authors, or even the first ascensionists who are targeted for criticism. For these people, the risk of rolling in the mud is not justified in terms of any potential benefit. There have, however, been a few good points made along the way.

The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990 The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960 The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960. The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure show the United States to rank below Canada and a wide variety of industrialized nations. propaganda

And now we know better.

It not only the doctors who should draw our suspicion. Most of them are actually trying to do their job. The insurance and health care management system, on the other hand, is not really aimed at keeping you healthy or helping you get better except where that happens to be profitable.

We were sternley berated by the server when I asked for a pitcher in your honor, Ken. I had not idea, but apparently it is just plain moronic to suggest Guinnes be put into a pitcher.

Gimps unite. I'll walk over there myself.

Fahrenheit was really just kind of a shotgun blast at Bush, a somewhat crude collection of essays not unlike Roger and Me. As I think was part of Dechristo's point, whether you enjoyed the movie or not had a lot to do with whether you like Bush.

What is your point, Jay? I answered your question and you come back with all these big words. Is your point that you are smart? Here:

If you get there it will. I'm working late, and I'm just a block away from there...