goatboy

Outward Bound also offers professional-level Outdoor Educator and Wilderness Instructor Training Courses (separate and distinct from their own in-house training for newly-hired staff). Being Outward Bound, it's probably more balanced between teaching skills, facilitating groups, and the technical wilderness skills being covered. I imagine that the NOLS course touches on all of those aspects but emphasizes the technical skills aspect more than the others.

I just replot...

MAYBE MORE THAN A PATCH OR TWO?

Seems to me that it's not always right to equate "instructor" and "guide." Many guides INSTRUCT on their climbs - AAI has their NW Mountain School, extended trips aimed more at skill instruction than on summitting... Other guides (usually on shorter trips) are pretty much aimed at getting their group of paying clients to the top and back again safely. Some Instructors (i.e. NOLS or Outward Bound) primarily aim at teaching skills, and occasionally go into "guide mode" when summitting a peak beyond their students' ability to lead the way... BUT it's more common that Instructing can look, and encompass different skills, than Guiding... It's possible that to INSTRUCT mountaineering requires MORE skills than GUIDING mountaineering does -- it depends, however, on the complexity of skills that you're instructing, the skill level of the participants, the environment you're doing it in... I think it's entirely possible that a beginner course could be taught by someone with (approximately) the level of skill which is outlined above...or, it could be disastrous if they overstep their skill level and go into terrain, or identify course objectives, beyond their ability to manage. But the IDEA of having clearly outlined minimum criteria or qualifications for instructors is obviously a good one, if it hasn't already been implemented... My two cents...

I have a betalight too. For most of my purposes, it's big enough -- though there are occasions where the MEGAlight would be better (i.e. three people). It's very light and very compressible...high recommendations. - GB

Do you want to know specifics about this climb in particular -- or are you asking a more general question like, "should we have just gone for it anyway?" I climbed Open Book with one #4 Camalot and one # 3, I think, back in the day -- and yes, it would have been nice to have had another big piece -- but did I find a way to make it go? Yes. And I bet you probably might have, too.

Mr Phil, Please see your PM's for more context on your last post. And no, contrary to your interpretation, I didn't go to their website in order to find something to make fun of - though I did in fact post something here which was in poor taste. I apologize(d) for that - and I did delete that post a long time ago. Thanks.

It's quite simple, for sure, if what you want to do is exchange insults and foster more defensiveness... If your goal is to foster any sort of heightened understanding, communication, or (gasp) even risk changing someone's outlook on a much-maligned and historically stereotyped organization, then posts like Selkirk's and Jason's go further to accomplish that than shopworn, garden-variety insults do. Would you disagree with that concept?

It's interesting to me that Jason, who isn't even a member of the Mountaineers from what I infer from his post, just stated more in their defense, and more eloquently, than many of the previous posts from their own members. He didn't even have to call us "punks" to get his point across, either!?!? Well put, Jason. Thanks for the thoughts.

CHECK this out! LINK (only if you are willing to be educated)

RPM is much more interesting and often less crowded than the standard OS start....

My understanding of Gore's use of profits from the movie is to use that money to train others globally to deliver the slideshow on which it is based and to foster more widespread delivery of the global message. I'm wondering if you have any ill-informed, cynical, or self-righteous comments to make about that fact, bwrts?

If you haven't seen "An Inconvenient Truth," I recommend it. Gore addresses this point of yours, and many others, showing evidence that correlate CO2 output and corresponding temps. The website is at THIS PAGE "The evidence is overwhelming and undeniable."

tAHQUITZ???

I can think of some very nice routes that are 5.4 or less -- S Face of Sharkfin Tower is one example...as long as the route is good, who cares if it's easy? Maybe I'm just getting old...

Wait til after it snows -- less folks that way!!!!! I've approached routes in Jan on fresh snowfall, then climbed in a t-shirt in the sun and been hot all day....

Climbing turd? Does that mean last one in a party of three?

I know Kim Reynolds, one of the principal organizers, and have nothing but positive things to say about her..and I've always heard great reviews of the clinic -- having said that, I'm not a lady and I've never participated in the clinic.

Hey Mark Allen, Nice work and great TR. I wonder if you're planning to show slides from your recent WA Pass FA's at the Feathered Friends show? I, for one, would be excited to see those pictures there... Thanks!

Any report available from folks who made it to these meetings?

Last time I was up there, you needed *two* ropes to get off the Inspiration Route -- has that changed?

Didn't NOLS have a rock-fall related fatality a few summers back? Outward Bound has had preventable fatalities in the past decade as well... I don't think AA Institute has had any fatalities that I know of... How many for the Mtneers? I know of 4 in the last 2 years...

John, What made the Lightning strikes "unpreventable?" In other words, were the people near a summit in the afternoon, on an exposed ridgeline, in their tents in a meadow....to me, some of these examples might be more "preventable" than others. True? Do you know details you could share?

I think Selkirk makes some great points from his personal experience, and demonstrates that the "stereotype" of Mtneers as total bumblers or the blind leading the blind is a misperception when applied to the entire group. However, one comment seems mis-calibrated: I believe that the WORST case impression stems from some of the recent fatalities which the club has had around Boston Basin and Icicle Creek...both of which took place during organized classes being run with students.

Belay loops are OFTEN (maybe always?) TWO loops sewn together to make what looks like one -- so there's some redundancy in there, although it looks like a single piece to fail... Perhaps this analysis-type talk should move to a separate thread, however?